Jeff's rep and the Perils of Creating a Scenario Editor
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Apprentice
Member # 3846
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 09:52
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I'm not much of a forum reader and I know that arguements over Jeff Vogel has been beaten to death already but I after reading the topic on Jeff's Reputation, i wanted to add my 2 cents: I've always been a fan of Spiderweb's games. This is partially historical, back in the 90's, before Baldu'rs Gate, the only RPGs I could find for the mac were Realmz and Exile. I loved Jeff and his games becuase the Exile series filled a gap, and they were quality games. Lets not forget the greatness of the first Exile games at the time they were released. I think his mistake was creating blades of exile, because thaty spawned a huge communty of developers who wanted to use his scenario editor to create games that went in different directions than he had originally intended. I'm not saying that the developers were wrong, but all of a sudden he had to not only compete with other developers who were using his product to make better/different games, but also there was a lot of contention between him and developers who wanted him to expand the capabilities of the editor to do more and more. And that's where the trouble begins. When he's the game maker and we're the players, we enjoy his games or we don't. And there may be features in the games that we miss, but we don't attack him as a community for not implementing these features. But when we're making games and he's making games, we start comparing our scenarios to his games, and when we released Blades of Avernum, a lot of developers were mad that he didn't add the functionality that they had been asking for for many years. It seems people thought of this as a betrayal of the community. My point is that as game players we may feel disappointed by a bad sequel, but I think that community relations get a lot more difficult when you have to deal with supporting an scenario editor. How do you balance what you think your scenario editor should do, as opposed to functionality people in the community want? Jeff said he wanted to limit how much you can customize some features, so that all BOE/BOA scenarios will be similar for the players, but thats an example where trying to improve the experience for the players constrains the options for the developers. For example: having an official site where you host scenarios adds a lot of headaches becuase you have to constantly update other people's scenarios. It would probably be easier to have a scenario repository on a fan site and thus not have the community get mad at you if you fall behind in maintaining the scenario listings. I think Jeff makes great games. But it gets very difficult when he creates a tool for developers and then finds himself stuck when the community's scenarios evolve beyond his original games, or go in different directions, and then they expect him to support the new features they have created in their scenarios. Or what happens when you create a scenario editor and the free scenarios created by community members are considered better than your own games? From a business perspective you've just shot yourself in the foot by giving the competition a great scenario editor they can use to make an even better product. The Best of the community's BOE scenarios definitely strech what you can do with the editor and are sometimes considered better than Jeff's games. I understand why those developers can be mad by the limitations of BOA. In conclusion, I think Jeff's reputations would have been better if he had never released a scenario editor and had just stuck to making games. He's definitely hd some screwups in dealing with the BOE/BOA community, but I think this just shows people how hard it can be for an indie developer to meet the needs of scenario developers. Personally I cut jeff some slack becuase he's such a small operation, that between a baby and developing new games, he might not have the time or energy to respond to all the scenario developer's needs. P.S. I haven't been reading the forums much, so I apoligize in advance if I have misrepresented the positions or opinions of facts of community members and scenario developers. I'm just saying how the situation seems to me. Posts: 27 | Registered: Thursday, January 1 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 10:03
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I've always been under the impression that the number one complaint against Jeff has been that he didn't fix known bugs in Blades of Exile. Certain advertised features simply did not work or worked in very bizarre, undocumented, inconsistent ways, and he knew about it (because we told him). That, more than desiring new features, was the issue. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 10:25
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honk, capitalism, socialism -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5028
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 10:49
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:confused: -------------------- I TOLD YOU BUT DID YOU LISTEN Posts: 3 | Registered: Tuesday, September 28 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4389
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 11:22
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Poor muffin. -------------------- fame fame fatal fame it can play hideous tricks on the brain Posts: 407 | Registered: Friday, May 14 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4973
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 11:30
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I have found no problem with Jeff's games, although I have never played BoE, but I agree (for what it's worth) with quartex. Sustaining and satisfying a growing community of scenario creators is much harder to do than simply making a stand-alone game. I am sure it is more difficult to address bugs discovered by many other people than bugs discovered by yourself. -------------------- There are three kinds of people in the world: those who think, those who think they think, and those who would rather die than think. Posts: 104 | Registered: Thursday, September 16 2004 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 11:33
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quartex - Well, maybe he shouldn't have made BoE. He would have never had me as a customer if he hadn't. Anyway, part of it is that a scenario editor is HARD to make, because people might do things that are totally unexpected. However, several possible expected uses in BoE don't work at all. Petrification Touch, for instance. It's listed as a possible special ability for monsters. If you give it to a monster... ...it diseases players lightly on hit, and does nothing to other monsters. Awesome. Acidic Weapons also count as Lifesaving items. Wow, what sense does that make? Several monsters have nonsense abilities in the base scenario file because monsters with fields weren't added to that database correctly. Meh. The Lyceum has a more complete list of stuff that doesn't work in BoE - and a lot of it seems really obvious. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 11:46
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I agree that Jeff could have maintained a better reputation if he hadn't released BoE, but he also would have lost a fair number of customers and community. He may not care about the latter, but the former is what his budget is all about. On the other hand, judging by the number of very good, very popular BoE scenarios, his product isn't a total failure. Yes, he could make it better, but arguing that BoE is unusable is ridiculous. It is quite usable. Parts don't work, but on the whole it does. [Edit: He^H^HI will get the pronouns right.] —Alorael, who concludes that Jeff's inexplicable failure to fix the very basic problems with the editor is, well, inexplicable, but that releasing BoE in the first place was a very good decision from a business standpoint. It drew in new customers and created new communities that were more likely to draw in yet more buyers and get people to buy more games. Now if only Jeff would see the light, however late, and release a patch... [ Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:47: Message edited by: Star's Terror, Eye's Martyr ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 12:44
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quote:Trying, perhaps. But if that's what he's trying to do, he's wrong. Bad designers will design badly no matter how much you restrict them, and good designers will take advantage of the features they're given and use them responsibly. quote:Such a fan-made BoE scenario repository already exists; it's called Alexandria. We're seriously thinking about getting Jeff to take down his poorly-maintained scenario tables and replace them with a link to Alexandria. quote:I don't need the scenario editor to do anything I can imagine, but I'd at least like it to work as advertised. It doesn't. quote:If I were a more cynical man than I am, I'd think we might be seeing here the real reason why Jeff has crippled BoE and BoA. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 17:37
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Basically, it's an issue of perspective. The perspective of the pure game designer is "I am going to make this work, and people will either like it or they won't. That will be that," barring any major showstopping bugs. On the other hand, the application designer's perspective is "I am developing this program to the specification of the community; I am going to continue to upgrade it and improve it for those customers." Obviously, there's a conflict here. Jeff Vogel has the former view, and that's fine for a game developer! Even if people, say, didn't like Fallout's barter system, unless it was seriously broken to the point of destroying the game, would they expect it to be changed in a future version? Most game developers fix only showstopper bugs, unless there's some online component to their game. Most games are patched one or two times for really heinous bugs, and that's that. This doesn't usually cut it for applications. You're expected to regularly update, improve, and fix your product, while adding new features. The problem is that Blades of Exile/Avernum, like all user content-driven games, is sort of a mix of game and application. To the player, it's a game; to the designer, it's an application. It seems that Vogel takes the game developer's approach to both sides -- he'll fix the big stuff, but other than that he's moving on. This is reasonable from that viewpoint -- Microsoft makes continual money from selling upgrades to Office and Windows, but game developers can't simply sell improvements to their previous games. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3418
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 19:30
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After reading a some of this recent hate stuff towards Jeff I'm starting to get the impression that people seem to think building a game and providing continous support requires next to no time or effort. It's giving me a great laugh since game development is the field I'm getting into and it isn't simple. For everyone that thinks it is why on earth are you wasting time with Jeff's editor? You could obviously do better yourself if game development is a piece of cake for you. On another note I did buy Blades of Avernum mainly for Jeff's scenarios since I think he does an excellent job with his scenario design. Most work done by other people I can't stand since they generally seem to have the misconception that plot should be constantly badgering the player. Either that or they have no sense in clever dungeon design. Posts: 16 | Registered: Tuesday, September 2 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 19:36
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What does it feel like to be part of a horde? -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 19:55
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It just strikes me as morally wrong to imply that one would provide bug fixes and then not deliver them. Maybe I'm out of line here, but that's just my general feeling. Really, read the links that I posted on the other thread. If your opinion is unchanged at that point, then I will respect it. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 20:42
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quote:I think most of us appreciate the time it takes. I know this myself. However, I also feel that products should work as promised and advertised. If a car says it can get 30 miles to the gallon highway and I only get 20, then I would definitely complain. The company should at very least change its gas milage standards. Jeff does not even go so far as to admit there are a whole bunch of things that are broken. At very least, he should have a comprehensive list of bugs posted on the website. Ideally, he should fix them. His argument has never really been from a time constraint (although I'm sure it is a factor), but from a customer service inconvenience one. I am sure there is some time tradeoff that can be made here. As far as Blades of Avernum, there really are not that many scenarios out there. A Perfect Forest is a toy scenario really. As a scenario designer, realize that it is impossible to cater to every audience in the playing community. You prefer Jeff's scenario design theory. While there is nothing inherently wrong with this, it got very tiresome after seven years of Blades of Exile scenarios. I suggest you play Blades of Exile scenarios. You will find many good ones there. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3418
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 20:50
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quote:Well the thing is Jeff needs to make money. Not only does he need to support himself but a family which is quite expensive. As Jeff has stated in an interview(http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=11) he'd like to claim that he's doing this for the love of writing games but he needs money to survive especially with a family. When you do independant development you don't directly get a salary or an hourly wage and are dependant on releasing titles since I'm quite sure sales taper down quite a bit after a certain time past the initial release regardless of how much time you put in supporting it. There's also the fact that it's much easier to say you're going to fix something than it is to actually do it and its very easy to underestimate how much effort is required to stomp a seemingly simple bug. Though it's certainly bad to make a lot of empty promises I can see where he's comming from. quote:Well I went through most of it and my opinion is still unchanged for this simple reason. I have got more than what I consider my money's worth on each and every game I've purchased from Jeff. Even in the case of Blades of Avernum I feel I have gotten my money's worth on the scenarios that it came with alone much less all the other user made scenarios that will come. So any other patches and updates Jeff makes is just icing on the cake. There have been so many commercial products I have purchased in bargain bins that weren't worth the 10$ I spent on them(which is why I generally do all my impulse buying in the bargain bins). If you feel that Jeff's products aren't worth the money you spent on them there is a very simple solution to this problem! Just don't buy future products from him if you feel they aren't up to your expectations for what you are paying for. If enough people feel that way then Jeff will be forced to raise the bar or in the awful case find another way to make money. As I've already noted several times I really like his games and they are certainly at the top of my list of games I enjoy to play which is why I support him by continueing to purchase his excellent games. And if people don't like his games or don't think they are worth their money I have to wonder why on earth they hang around as there are many other alternates. Posts: 16 | Registered: Tuesday, September 2 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 20:55
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Because they paid money expecting a level of service that was not provided. I don't see how that's so hard to understand. For $30, I expect to receive what I was promised. EDIT: If money is an issue, why the whelp? RE-EDIT: You know, there's another moral issue here. Blades of Exile, like most commercial software, comes saddled with an EULA. (I find these abominable, but that's a different subject.) As a result, when you pay your money, you don't own the game; rather, you own a license to use the copy you possess on the CD or downloaded off the Internet. What I don't understand is this. Why should the buyer have obligations to the seller in perpetuity (agreement to not decompile, etc.) and the seller be free from any obligation (check the BoE EULA -- like most, it disclaims all warranty) to the buyer? [ Tuesday, September 28, 2004 21:05: Message edited by: Andrea ] -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 455
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 20:57
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[Edit: Automotive analogy already stolen by *i. Curses!] This is maybe the seventh time this has been said in this thread alone, but seeing that the aspiring "indie" developer community seems a tad hard of hearing these days: The problem isn't that Jeff Vogel did not provide infinite and eternal support for BoE. The problem isn't that Jeff Vogel didn't change the product in accordance with idiosyncratic customer wishes. The problem isn't that Jeff Vogel is a militantly mediocre scenario designer. The problem is that Jeff Vogel received money in consideration for a product that did not perform as its promotional materials and supporting documents claimed. These flaws are neither esoteric nor cosmetic. They are fundamental and structural. Were you to buy a car whose ignition cut off as soon as you used a half-tank of gas, you would own the automotive equivalent of BoE's 100-town bug. Furthermore, some of the flaws are so obvious and elementary that to have missed them during alpha testing is the handiwork of an heroic act of slapdash indifference. Had even the more trivial problems shown up in the Avernums or Geneforges, you can bet there'd be a line at the whinging counter like it was 1977 and a Vladivostok liquor store all over again ("What do you mean my Alien Blade isn't poisoned? How can I do MAX DAMEDGES!?!?!"). Djur is being charitable: even game developers can't expect to get away with refusing to fix problems that serious and thorough-going. That Vogel did is entirely thanks to a group of "hobbyists" who did his work for him. So Quartex's "game vs. editor" analysis is correct, provided it is flipped on its head: there's no way you can release a product as compromised as BoE unless you're selling it to people who are more creative, careful and imaginative than you are. [ Tuesday, September 28, 2004 20:58: Message edited by: Boots ] -------------------- Forgive them, for they are young and rich and white. Posts: 265 | Registered: Saturday, December 29 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3418
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 21:01
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quote:Well once you spend the money there isn't much you can do if Jeff doesn't offer any refunds. If you don't think his products are worth that or will reach what he says his expectations are then don't buy future products from him. Slinging insults at him is a much less effective way to get him to change as compared to not funding him. Posts: 16 | Registered: Tuesday, September 2 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 21:06
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Okay, problem: we already paid for a product he made promises about and failed to deliver on. That's called fraud. He has a moral and legal obligation to follow up on promises he made to us as customers. Not stating opinion here. I can go into opinion, but I'm not going to. That's just fact. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 21:18
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That's what we're doing. I don't recall any insult-slinging, but what I do recall is that, for instance, many people have said that if Vogel does not respond to the BoE petition and/or provide a sufficient level of support for BoA, they will not buy BoA or make scenarios for it. This is a reasonable technique -- make a request, with a clear consequence of lost income if it is refused. Voting with dollars. Wish it wasn't necessary. The simple fact is that for a company to release an application and provide poor support for it, when customers were promised a better level of support, is simply bad business. When a company is practicing bad business, it is its customers' right and responsibility to voice their concern to the company, inform other customers as to the issue with the company's product, and take their business elsewhere when all else fails. Applications are not widgets. They're not interchangeable -- Realmz, for example, is not a replacement for BoE, nor the reverse. In such a situation, when a group of customers have seen something they enjoy in Blades of Exile, but find it falls short of expectations, it is their right to lobby the company to improve it. And what of the whole shareware philosophy? Blades of Exile is arguably "try before you buy." Since you cannot play custom-made scenarios in the shareware version, the only way you can know that it does not work as advertised is if someone publishes that information. That is what is being done here. The more people know about the state of Blades of Exile and what Vogel's attitude has been towards it, the better-informed they will be when they make the decision to buy his software. It's as simple as that. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3418
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 21:29
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quote:Ahh brings back memories of a thread on the Temple of Elemental Evil board where someone was making a big fuss about all the bugs and poor quality of its release. He made a big deal claiming he was going to take it to court. Guess what nothing happened. Look at the forums for just about any game and you'll find people whining that they were ripped off by the company since they didn't meet their initial expectations or certain things never got fixed. And despite people sue over the most trivial and ridiculus things I've never heard of a game company getting sued because of lack of support or meeting there expectations. Take this to a lawyer and I'm sure he'll laugh his rear off. The bottom line is that Blades of Avernum was only $30. If it were some larger sum of money I could see it being worth fighting for it and not being a joke in court. I've spent more on commerical games only to have them run poorly or worse on a machine that met and exceeded the recommended specs. If you feel you've been ripped off then don't make the same mistake twice and find some other toolset to use that meets your budget and expectations. But whining about it on a forum and being disgruntled won't do much. Posts: 16 | Registered: Tuesday, September 2 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 21:40
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quote:Hey, could you do me a favor? If you actually do go into game development, please, let me know what games you're making. I don't want to waste my money on a game made by someone who feels that it's all right to rip people off, as long as it's only for $30. What is it with prospective game developers and their defense of Jeff Vogel? Is he a success story? Proof that you, too can overcharge for games and not even follow up on your promises? I can see how you'd respect his lowering the bar. Nobody's seriously been suggesting suing Vogel. Alec's point is that, although it may not be actionable, Spiderweb's behavior has been technically fraudulent. This is more than enough of a reason to complain, and loudly. What do you think Consumer's Union and the Better Business Bureau are? They're customers publishing their positive and negative interactions with a company. It's word of mouth. It's as valid to influence someone else not to buy from a company as it is to not buy from them yourself, as long as it isn't coercive. At this point, Vogel's failure to support BoE is old history. Right now, there's some more important issues -- the decrepit state of the scenario tables, for instance, and the company's flippant attitude about it. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 21:52
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So, let me get this straight, if a company releases a faulty product, it is ethically correct to continue to sell that product as if it were not defective. Is this what you are saying? Keep in mind, the 'yelling' you so claim is after years of Jeff's arrogant responses on this subject. I agree, we could stop purchasing products, but we do not want it to come to that. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3418
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 21:58
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quote:Yep money is a powerful persuasive force. Though I'm quite sure a good majority of Jeffs buying customers aren't forum goers. I've been playing Exile games since back in '96 when I got the internet yet until recently I never even checked the forums. And if you don't like a companies policy on support you certainly shouldn't support them by buying their products. quote:Yep and its a shame that even commercial companies do it. Just look at Temple of Elemental Evil it was released ina barely playable state with many features missing and game killing bugs. Atari provided no support for the product. If it weren't for the fact that one of the programmers had pride in his work there would have been no patches since he single handidly on his own time with no pay from Atari. quote:Heh well you have the right to complain but certainly aren't responsible. If I get a crappy game I just move on and am more weary about buying from the same publisher/company in the future :) . quote:Yep applications certainly aren't interchangable but if you require the unique aspect of one product you'll just have to live with its short commings if the author doesn't get around to patching them. You certainly have your right to voice an opinion but its still up to the author to anything about it. Posts: 16 | Registered: Tuesday, September 2 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3418
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written Tuesday, September 28 2004 22:07
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quote:In buisiness ethics are generally thrown out the window. I'm quite sure all those products in late night infomercials are down right crappy and won't completely change my life like they make them out to. What I'm saying is for $30 the product was well worth it in the state I bought it. If you don't think it was then stop buying stuff from Jeff since you have different expectations. quote:See that's the thing. Even though the products aren't perfect and Jeff makes statements you find assinine you still think it's worth your money otherwise there would be no hesitation in just leaving. If you're still unsure just don't buy the product right away and see what people have to say. Games rarely get too much support after its initial release since it's generally not very profitable and even if a game isn't perfect if its fun people will continue to buy products from you. So if after a few months the game/editor still isn't at the state you want then don't buy it. Posts: 16 | Registered: Tuesday, September 2 2003 07:00 |
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