Free Will
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1723
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written Wednesday, January 14 2004 17:50
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I have a toothpick in my left hand. I am going to do 1 of 2 things: break it, or not break it. Either way, you can argue that what I did was determined by my past experiences, but that's only in hindsight. Because you can never observe every tiny nueron firing in my brain, and because you can never have an intimate knowledge of every event that has ever happened to me in my entire life and how that affected my decision, you will never be able to predict my action. Thus, while my action may have been determined before it happened, noone would ever KNOW that it was determined before it happened, thus it would always be a surprise. By extention, my decision will affect you in some way. If you can't even know what my decision will be, then you can't tell how it will affect you and sway future decisions you will make. So, even if free will doesn't exist, the illusion that it exists will always be there. And if the illusion of free will will always exist no matter what we do, then we should just continue to live our lives under the impression that it exists to avoid apathy, depression, and hopelessness that is spawned by no longer believing in free will. In other words, for all practical purposes, we can just assume that free will exists and live our lives accordingly, since trying to disprove its existence gains no one anything in the end. Or at least, that's my uneducated opinion. Prove me wrong. -------------------- "... and approximately one sea turtle." Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, January 14 2004 20:47
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I can't see why you'd find the lack of free will depressing. Free will, if it means anything at all, means we're each responsible for our own choices -- that everything that's wrong with society has no good explanation except that people chose to make it that way. I can't think of anything more depressing than that. If, on the other hand, you don't believe in free will, you need never again experience guilt about not being good enough, since you had no say in the sort of person you are. You can stop hoping for a better world, because you know that the world is entirely beyond your control; if things will get better, they will, and if they won't, they won't, regardless of how you feel about it. What could be more liberating? -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Thursday, January 15 2004 03:31
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I agree with Thuryl for the most part - however, I think that the free will of the individual and the free will of the society, are two very very different things. While (and let's assume for the moment that individual's will is existant) the will of an individual is thoroughly unpredictable, when you are dealing with millions, or billions of people, the progress of society is depressingly predictable. For instance, all societies persecute one minority or another - blacks in America, Asians and asylum seekers in Britain, North African Arabs in France, Palestinians in Israel and (in the past) Jews in Germany. The responses of the vast majority of society are predictable in these ways, the minority is generally persecuted. On the subject of free will of the individual, from what I can gather, the destruction of classical physics began around 1900 - the idea that if you have the right set of values about a thrown ball, you can predict where it will land. This came about when a scientist (his name escapes me) began to study the problem of mirrors. Even the best mirror will only reflect 95% of light, the rest will pass through. The problem occured in that, according to classical physics, one out of twenty photons was "picked" from the beginning to pass through the mirror. However, the scientist found that this wasn't how it happened - he discovered that all of the photons had a 95% chance of passing through, giving them an innate unpredictability that turned classical physics on its head. All this goes some way to prove that the idea of being able to predict everything is not a valid one and so gives more hope to the existance of free will (something I'm becoming more and more convinced about). -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1723
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written Thursday, January 15 2004 18:57
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I find that no longer believing in free will is incredibly depressing, because it eliminates, to me, the point of life. If every decision has already been made and the entire course of the universe decided a billion years ago, what's the point of my life? Doesn't that make everything that happens to me independent of what I do? If, on the other hand, free will exists and I can make whatever choice I want whenever I want, that gives me hope because I have a degree of control over what happens to me. Without free will, we are basically victims (or benefactors, as the case may be) of fate and nothing more. I aggree that, as a whole, trends are somewhat predictable, but not entirely. Trends can be broken. And you still can't predict what each person will do. -------------------- "... and approximately one sea turtle." Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1877
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written Friday, January 16 2004 04:44
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I agree 200% with you Aarrow. -------------------- MDNZZZ ZMMMBIS WBLOONZ 33111-CRUSADER-4849 Posts: 662 | Registered: Friday, September 13 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 517
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written Friday, January 16 2004 07:56
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Hold on a second. Consider the possibility that everything is fixed but unpredictable. This is actually a perfectly valid possibility-since we exist on the same level of abstraction as the universe, we cannot predict the future within the universe, but if there is a higher level of abstraction it may well be possible to predict things that happen at ours. Now, if that is true, we do not have free will. But we still choose to do what we do. We still have our reasons. The fact that on a higher abstraction level those reasons are possible to predict, doesn't stop them being reasons at ours. And if we have reasons for what we do, we have free will. -E- -------------------- Let them eat cake! Polaris Boards: The System is Up. Perennially. Posts: 2314 | Registered: Tuesday, January 15 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, January 16 2004 13:14
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Heh. We seem to be going at this from precisely opposite directions. I've asserted that having reasons for our actions means we don't have free will, since a reason implies that our actions are caused, whereas you've asserted that having reasons for our actions means we do have free will, since a reason implies that we choose a particular course of action. I suppose this just proves there's no winning this argument. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Friday, January 16 2004 13:42
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If you have no free will, it doesn't follow you have no purpose. You can still have a purpose without control. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Saturday, January 17 2004 01:20
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If you don't have free will, but you don't know it and think that every decision you make is your sole choice, then why complain? Does it bother you that you *might* not have a say in what you do, even though you have the illusion that you do? ;) -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Saturday, January 17 2004 01:45
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Hmm. The first post in this thread asked what free will means. Somehow, that got ignored in favour of arguing about whether we have it. Does anyone feel like posting a definition? -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |