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Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Monday, December 17 2007 06:03 Profile #361
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

He's said it a whole bunch of times. He's saying that not allowing gay marriage is not discrimination in the way that Jim Crow laws were discrimination, because gay marriage really is different from straight marriage, whereas black people aren't really different from white people.

This argument isn't valid, but it isn't hard to understand.

The problem that you've been having is that you think that this means that he's arguing against gay marriage. He's not. One could (via some circuitous but possible logic) argue that it may not be prejudicial discrimination but it's still not right for various reasons, and therefore gay marriage should be allowed. He's explicitly not taken a stand on that. He's just saying that it's not like racial discrimination, whether it's right or wrong.
We mustn't forget, as splendid as your logic sounds, that we can't compare marriages in order to find discrimination, since it isn't marriage that's being discriminated.

The individuals who are getting married (or not) are the ones who are being discriminated on feeble grounds. Stillness has stated that he thinks 'practicing homosexuality is bad'. He never answered why.

Instead he took it from there trying to prove his point. At first he was eager about proper definitions of words (pumpkin pie vs. sweet potatoe pie) and when that didn't work he refused to respond to other people's comments on that. Then he was shifting goal-posts again, talking marriage and people as if it were the same thing until most people who were willing to argue with him couldn't see through all the smoke he created.

It boils down to this: Sex (as in gender) is nothing people decide on, it merits (warrats) no reward. Withholding certain legal (not biological) benefits from people on these grounds is discrimination (and, yes: sexual discrimination is not like racial discrimination, because it isn't racial discrimination. In every other aspect it is just like racial discrimination.)

If somebody, e.g. a homophobe Jehova's Witness tries to prove to you that homosexuality is bad without daring to say so from the start, beating around the bush in which he hides his core thesis, it might not be a very good idea to keep debating, after you discovered what he's really after, as if he weren't a homophobe loony.

edit: quite a few typos. I hope I squashed them.

[ Monday, December 17, 2007 06:07: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Jest and Youthful Jolity in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Sunday, December 16 2007 22:15 Profile #11
We'll be enjoying time with relatives from different parts of Europe, not having to work for two weeks, not having to get up at six in the morning, seeing friends, splendid meals, and preparation for a New Year's Eve party. I'm really looking forward to all of this.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
The War on Christmas in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Sunday, December 16 2007 04:35 Profile #69
quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Its 4:30 in the morning I'm not going to remember some remote piece of biology(I prefer astrophysics anyways) off the top of my head. The main thing behind obesity is we are a society of convenience. We want what is convenient and fatting foods are more convenient. Even for rich people fatting foods are more convenient. I'll admit I'm a bit rounder at the waist then I won't but I"m not about to blame someone else for that.

I have hear of mental disorders involving starving then binging but they normally involve being skinny or average weight. I haven't heard of a version as mentioned above. Perhaps the problem is that poor people don't have access to a psychologist? The problem seems to be more of a mental illness then how rich or poor people are.
There is a lot of hear-say in what you're claiming. Do you actually believe that any opinion is as relevant as others, just because somebody is able to utter it? Or do you acknowledge at all that research, delving into a matter, reading a variety of sources - in short: studying something - possibly grants a more profound basis for an argument than something along the lines: "I've heard that a couple of poor fat people believe the moon is made from blue cheese, whereas I've also heard a couple of rich lean people said it's red cheese. It must be red then."

What really troubles me is that you are reffering to the basics of nutrition as some "remote pieces of biology". Judging from your profile you are just a few weeks short of becoming 19 years old. How remote can biology be for you then?

I wonder how your interest in astrophysics came to be, if you despise the basics of science so much.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Sunday, December 16 2007 02:06 Profile #340
quote:
Originally written by Safey:

The Italians have a coalition system where no political party has the majority. So to get the majority they have to make these coaltions. When ever the part who leads the coalitions fail to keep one of their promises they loose support from one of their factions and the coalition breaks up and elections are called for again. Sometimes having 6 elections in one year. Americans aren't the only ones with crappy politcs
This is a rather dim view on Italy's political system. It's not a coalition system, but a system where parties have to form alliacnes, because any parties will hardly ever get the absolute majority of the people's votes. Since you need a majority for successful legislation, parties form coalitions. Since their views often are incompatible, the break apart rather quickly.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Sunday, December 16 2007 01:59 Profile #339
quote:
Originally written by Hanged Man:

Alorael, who wishes America had something better than a two-party system. It strangles politics.
I have come to realize the hard way that having more parties (5-7) doesn't help a lot. It's not a lack of ideas either. It's a problem of getting your ideas through to the people against a mighty, global marketing machine. If politics is about nothing else but ecconomics, it won't help people who can't participate. But if you try and point that out, you are being laughed at or called a communist.

Among other things, that's what strangles politics.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Sunday, December 16 2007 01:43 Profile #335
quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Its a nice concept I'll give it that. Its poorly executed however.
Which is because there is no Left to speak of, but a lot of factions who claim content-leadership over liberalism, just like Clinton has.

Just another interesting note from 'over here': the party who dub themselves 'liberals' are what you would call neo-cons. They took over the meaning of the word liberal to non-interference with the free market.

Edit: having read your last post now, after I have written mine, leads me to believe I shouldn't have bothered in the first place. I'm sorry. Thanks for your valuable time and thank you very much for sharing your vast and rich experience with welfare, the universe and everything else. Thank you, thank you.

[ Sunday, December 16, 2007 01:50: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Saturday, December 15 2007 06:54 Profile #294
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Safey:

I always considered homosexuality to be something entertained by the rich. Judging from high schools few poor high schools have gay people. You might be able to find one or two but it be difficult. However knew friends from the wealthy high schools who often complained about. Even your examples out of history come from times when that particular civilization was prosperous. Wealthy people can afford to indulge in habits that aren't natural. Gay marrage is simply a tool used by those in ivory towers to gain political clout. The only ones who seem to care are those who have alot of money. A poor person is less concerned who visits them in the hospital and more concern that the hospital treats them, less concerned who inherit their wealth and more concern who inherits their bills. That and other left wing issues aren't affordable by poor people. Environmentally friendly cars, to expensive. It angers me that liberals claim to have the poor mans best interest in yet they are more concerned with idiot nitpicking laws then the real issues.
You are a living black hole of ignorance.
You... you mean it's... it's (shudder)... alive?

It's living proof that most problems we are facing in the world today stem from lack of proper education (being able to learn by yourself, critical thinking, getting yourself interested in complex matters and dealing with them, heck, even reading).

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Provide or Hide Character Details in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Saturday, December 15 2007 03:09 Profile #1
I do seem to remember, though, that this information is provided in the manual. But I am not entirely certain.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Saturday, December 15 2007 00:31 Profile #288
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

My uncle married my wife and me in his basement with a few close friends and relatives on hand. Weeks later my father-in-law had a very large bar-b-que in his backyard with all of our family and friends.
So this is why you keep bringing this polygamous thing up. Which father-in-law?

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

If my religion is polygamous I can have all the “wives” I want, but if I try to legalize the marriages I get locked up right?
Is your uncle fine with being called your wife? Were you locked up? Who legalized your trinity?
I feel that you shouldn't be locked up if your 'wives' are consenting adults. Then again, my opinion doesn't count much around your neck of the woods.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 03:06: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Friday, December 14 2007 07:48 Profile #271
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Locmarr, If I’m twisting words or misusing quotes, then give me an example of when I did it so I can at least explain myself. Otherwise, your posts merit no response from me.
You are, I have, you didn't, I'm tired.
And I feel discriminated.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Thursday, December 13 2007 20:51 Profile #266
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Locmaar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The question about sexual classification is one I’ve thought a lot about since I do agree with the anti-gay marriage camp that practicing homosexuality is bad.
Why? This might shed some light on what you've been saying.
Because if you still need to practice, then obviously you're not very good at it yet.
:D

@ Synergy: Yes, well. But we other people had some sort of discourse, too. And maybe it's about leeting people like Stillness know that their propaganda doesn't grow well in certain places. Keeping up the resistance is important (holding fist to his head).

[ Thursday, December 13, 2007 20:58: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Thursday, December 13 2007 14:49 Profile #258
quote:
Originally written by Locmaar:

Stillness, your tiresome quoting out of context, turning and twisting other people's thoughts around, and then claiming that everybody agreed on your discourse is really annoying.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

This is not what I did, but if I’m doing something you’re tired of then don’t address me. I’ll reciprocate.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Really it’s not my practice to ignore posts directed to me. If I think your point is unrefutable, I’ll concede or say, “good point” or something along those lines. In this case, I admit I didn’t give it much thought after seeing the first part of your post, just like I’m doing with Locmaar’s nonsense from now on.
Could you possibly explain to me what exactly you mean by 'nonsense'? Or is it - by your own standards - enough to just declare something as nonsense in order not to deal with it?

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The question about sexual classification is one I’ve thought a lot about since I do agree with the anti-gay marriage camp that practicing homosexuality is bad.
Why? This might shed some light on what you've been saying.

[ Thursday, December 13, 2007 14:53: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Wednesday, December 12 2007 22:34 Profile #237
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

Maybe you should use the word "warrants" instead of "merits" to avoid confusion.
Ah, but there's the problem: The confusion is manmade. Stillness wants to misunderstand, since he can then continue to argue from his semantic ivory tower, where no external noises can penetrate his musings. Were he interested in finding out what we are talking about, he would actually comment on the things he's avoiding instead of quoting excerpts and puzzling them together in order to tailor them to his replies.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Wednesday, December 12 2007 22:19 Profile #235
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Locmaar:

Stillness, your tiresome quoting out of context, turning and twisting other people's thoughts around, and then claiming that everybody agreed on your discourse is really annoying.
This is not what I did, but if I’m doing something you’re tired of then don’t address me. I’ll reciprocate.
It is what you're doing. You still are. (hence your forum name? I wonder.) Taking words out of context and then receding to a different meaning the combination of letters might carry is precisely what you're doing all the time.

Out of curiosity: when you said you'll reciprocate, which meaning of the word did you have in mind?

1. To give or take mutually; interchange.

or

2. To move back and forth alternately.

Depends on what you had for breakfast, doesn't it?

Edit:

I forgot. In the handicapped parking dilemma, we need to realize the following premise:

The notion is that there are certain things handicapped people have a harder time at, which are considered a vital part of everyday life in society. Aiding them to be able to participate in everyday life is a way of countering this handicap. It is not rewarding them for being different.

When my daughter wants to challenge me to a hundred yard dash, it's not discriminating to give her a head start or to run at something far below top speed. She's seven. It's evening the odds. Calling this discrimination is semantically challenged lingo-babble.

[ Wednesday, December 12, 2007 22:29: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Wednesday, December 12 2007 11:40 Profile #220
Stillness, your tiresome quoting out of context, turning and twisting other people's thoughts around, and then claiming that everybody agreed on your discourse is really annoying.

If you would just spend a minute's thought over what other people say, much of this endless strand of trying to prove what a bright guy you are could be avoided.

Since you've already heard of semantics, allow me to point out that there are two different meanings of the word discrimination.

One is to do with being able to differentiate between things, e.g. pumpkin pie and sweet potatoe pie. This is however not the meaning we are talking about. This is the one that's good (being able to do that is infact good). But semantically as well as pragmatically it has to be treated as a different word, because it means something entirely different.

I repeat: this is not the meaning we are talking about. To clarify this once more ( I feel I have to do this, lest we suddenly all have agreed that you were right all along):

1. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice.

2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.

Our discussion is about 1.

The second one is not what we are talking about.
I assume that we can differentiate between males and females (at least I hope so), so I conclude that we can tell same-sex from different-sex marriages. That's meaning 2 right there, pumpkin.

If you don't understand any of this, look it up in a dictionary or a thesaurus (that's by the way not Adam and Eve's steed on which they rode out of Eden).

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Wednesday, December 12 2007 03:20 Profile #205
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I guess I do accept the premise that discrimination is wrong by default but can be justifiable. But I am concerned that 'greater good' may be a will-o-the-wisp as well.
I suggest reading 'The Greater Common Good' to illustrate this point. Indeed, the greater good is usually defined by someone and often does not withstand closer scrutiny.

I am convinced that discrimination is always wrong, yet it happens. Justification is hard and always wispy.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Tuesday, December 11 2007 22:47 Profile #203
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:


quote:
Originally written by Locmaar:

For what it's worth: over here (Germany) there usually are allocated parking spots for mothers(!) with small children right next to those for the handicapped (the parking spots aren't handicapped as I've come to realize).
You’re kidding?! Man, I just made that up. I should be some kind of social engineer or something. :)
Take something :P

These parking spots have been around for more than 8 years now. But I guess not too many people care about what's happening in Ye Olde Europe much.

As far as the study is concerned, it doesn't seem to discern between motivating factors for marriage in the first place. How could it? But there is a difference.

Say you got married after high school to your then sweetheart. A couple of children and experiences later both of you begin to realize that, knowing then what you know now, you probably wouldn't have bonded, because when you think about it, you don't really like one another a lot. I'm not convinced that this is a good environment for children to grow up in, just because their parents are married.

While statistics can be a good first indicator that something is amiss/wrong you will have to look at a lot of case studies to really get to the core of this. And then again: since there cannot be a significant number of same-sex marriages to be studies in the first place, we can't really conclude anything significant regarding the (now) topic of this conversation.

Dikiyoba: Well said!

Where is the love, dudes?

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Tuesday, December 11 2007 09:09 Profile #187
Sounds plenty accurate to me. Well done.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Tuesday, December 11 2007 08:45 Profile #185
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

It’s been explained that discrimination is bad?

That’s ridiculous.

Handicapped parking spots are bad? Empowerment zones are bad?

Me liking sweet potato pie more than pumpkin pie is bad?

You can find discrimination in just about everything.

Society is not homogeneous.
It has.

It's not.

Handicapped parking spots aren't bad. They're supposedly to make up for the handicap, sort of balancing certain factors properly in order not to discriminate.

You liking sweet potatoe pie better than pumpkin pie is not only bad but evil. Some could consider it taste, be it bad or good.

Finding discrimination even in your taste buds and everywhere else is feeble and certainly on the verge of paranoia. It's not the sense of the word we are talking about anyway.

It's a case of making up definitions to prove your point, something you've done before. You aren't willing to talk about how same-sex marriage is discrimination, because you have already decided that it can't be. I can only guess why, but it would seem to be a clear case. Your choice anyway.

Society is not homogeneous? That's right. And good. But beside the point.

[ Tuesday, December 11, 2007 13:54: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Tuesday, December 11 2007 06:15 Profile #176
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

It sounds like some of the folks here are saying that discrimination is bad except for when it’s not. While I agree, I don’t know that this tells us anything about whether or not discriminating in favor of man-woman pairing is a rights or religious issue. If you won same-sex marriage you’d still be discriminating against multiple-person groupings or people that choose to stay single. Would that be a religious or rights issue?
I don't know how you reached this kind of summary, but it's really nothing more than plain rhetoric. Discrimination is bad. Period. All that's been said is that there might be circumstances where it can become neccessary to discriminate against someone for the better of a vast majority. Nevertheless, it remains bad.

In a multiple-person grouping situation we would still have to ensure consenting partners. Other than that, you're absolutely right. It's discriminating and that's bad. However, same-sex marriage would be a good first step in order to tackle the latter problem.

In a secular state this absolutely cannot be a religious issue, at least not outside your personal church or place of worship or choose-your-poison.

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Saying that there is no harm to recognizing other kinds of marriage tells us nothing. There is no harm in doing a lot of stuff that the government doesn’t subsidize. What needs to be determined is whether or not all of the perceived advantages to society of man-woman pairing exist in other unions.

If and when same-sex marriage is recognized it will not be for any of these reasons you all are arguing for. It’ll simply be because one belief system won out over another. All the talk about separation of church and state, discrimination, rights violations, and comparisons to women’s and minority rights is the overlay for the underplay. The actual discrimination against homosexual individuals that was mentioned early on in the discussion (e.g. housing, military, etc) is a different issue altogether.
As before, you keep reciting and repeating only what you've been saying all along. It's an inconclusive string of claims, and by no means a summary of the argument, let alone sensible.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Monday, December 10 2007 13:01 Profile #153
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
…along with polyamorous marriage which is also discriminated against, oh and incestuous marriage (where the couples/groups don’t reproduce of course). Right?
And if they do reproduce they might be facing genetic degradation in their offspring(s).

Mind you, we should be very careful in talking about incestuous marriage if we are to establish that marriage should be a bond between consenting adults.

edit: Two or more consenting adults.

[ Monday, December 10, 2007 13:03: Message edited by: Locmaar ]

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Monday, December 10 2007 12:26 Profile #151
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Locmaar, I said I don’t know and gave a possible reason. Why are you asking me for a reason?

And when I say “I believe…in general” that doesn’t mean that it’s a fact in every single case. And I’m not buying your anecdotal “evidence.” Where is “over here?”
There's been many a time when you've stated your belief(s) as something universal enough to be discarded by others.

Over here is Germany and it's not for sale just yet.

quote:
Originally written by Locmaar:

What you are infact talking about is discrimination.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

So what? Everybody agrees the laws are discriminatory. That’s exactly the kind of loaded language that masks the truth of the matter. The question is whether or not it’s a constitutional matter (e.g. seperation of church and state or infringement of rights) in which the government should override the will of the majority to protect the minority from harm.
So what? Apart from now knowing what the majority wants and - again - discarding everything anyone's been saying: SO WHAT??!

Never you mind 'so what'. You just get yourself a fancy job on a football ground, shifting them posts.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Monday, December 10 2007 11:06 Profile #143
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I don’t think it’s religious, at least not solely. I believe there’s a practical rationale.
And what might that be?

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I’ll tell you what else I believe (I know you’re eager to hear my deep thoughts). In general, people don’t get married for the legal priviledges, nor would the absence of those priviledges prevent those wanting to marry from doing so.
Wrong, actually. Infact, I know (careful: pun!) a couple of couples who got married for exactly this reason: legal privileges (taxes, to be more precise). It's quite common over here, to tell you the truth.

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

That’s why I’m convinced that the desire for same-sex marriage recognition is not based on government discrimination, but based on concerns of society’s views. That in and of itself doesn’t make it wrong, it just cuts through the smoke and mirrors. If you think it’s about legalities, I’d like to show you our fine selection of bridges available for your purchase.
Oh, but it's the government executing on society's concerns and views. These concerns and views, by the way, are merely smoke and mirrors we should be cutting through. What you are infact talking about is discrimination.

And I ain't sure I want to purchase any of your bridges. Too many of them collapse before I can see them.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Monday, December 10 2007 09:37 Profile #138
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Locmaar:

Like people don't have to subscribe to a blood transfusion after a car accident (no seat-belt), if their parents say so?
Are you really serious about the seatbelts? I was making a point, not arguing against wearing them. I personally think its a good law. OK?
Personally, I don't think it's a very good idea to make this a law - I was making a point.

I am actually pretty serious about the blood-transfusion.

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Locmaar
Warrior
Member # 6934
 written Monday, December 10 2007 08:44 Profile #133
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I’m one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We’re politically neutral. We only get excited when governments interfere with our worship. Incidentally, a lot of folks are unaware that we’ve won some landmark cases that aid the cause of freedom for everyone because of our worship.
Like people don't have to subscribe to a blood transfusion after a car accident (no seat-belt), if their parents say so?

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Always be true to yourself - unless you suck
Posts: 183 | Registered: Sunday, March 19 2006 08:00

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