Some Simple Suggestions for not Sucking at A4
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| Author | Topic: Some Simple Suggestions for not Sucking at A4 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, December 12 2005 18:43
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Yeah, I like your Slith priest idea. The priest is the one PC who can most affordably spare some points to be a bit of a figher too, as the priest has cheaper spells/faster priest spell level up due to the Pure Spirit trait. The top is 17, not the 18 it was in A3 as I recall, at least to cast all spells. Mages take more to power up, and really need some potency for Lightning Spray in the mid-game, speaking of which...yeah, it can be kind of unpredictable which three foes are going to be the recipients of your lovingly bestowed electrical greeting. I have had Lightning Spray go literally straight forward and 180 degrees to each side if those were the only three targets nearby. LS only hits three targets for the entire game, in case anyone is wondering. I think that my next game may employ a slith priest, and I will makeone or two meat shield melee fighters, probably one fighter/archer and one fighter/thief. I keep wanting to make a fifth PC for this game so I can have: one melee, one pole (or second mage), one mage, one priest, and one archer/thief. It is always a strain to cover all these skills with only four PC's. The mage suffers if you make him your thief or archer, but I don't like sacrificing one whole fighter just to be an archer or thief, especially to be as good a thief as I want to try to make, to get in that L35 door. You know, it's probably not worth pumping up the thief that much for one or two doors in the game. Like I said, my mage opened a L25 door magically. I'd just like to know what's behind those L28 and L35 doors. Hey Ephesos, why don't you use the cheat code to pump up your powerful thief to level 35 and tell me what's behind the door in the library in Patrick's Tower? -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Monday, December 12 2005 19:07
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Vlish et al. I recognise your arguments but my question is then - why a Slith? What does the Slith give you that you don't get from your tactics alone. Why a Slith priest rather than a human priest with pure spirit? (being approximately equivalent XP penalty wise) The Big Poke? I much preferred repeated and inexorable application of spells that hit the target's weakness. Why walk towards them for the Big Poke and run when in the same time you would have hit them with four or five applications of the damage dealing spell of your choice - Smite, Bolt of Fire, etc... Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Monday, December 12 2005 19:15
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...which gets me thinking. Why would not a nephil priest be better? The Slith advantage is pole weapons skill which requires melee. But a slith is not inherently able to be a full-time melee player without significant enhancement of melee skills. A nephil still has the weapon specific bonus to deal significant physical damage when required but doesn't require the physical buffing necessary for a slith (at the expense of magical training lets not forget). I think the reason is that people have a romantic attachement to the D&D style cleric who can muck in when required... not because there is something inherently obvious about the Slith and Priest combination (unlike, let us say, the Dwarf and Priest combination of all the D&D ilk). For your consideration. Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 12 2005 19:25
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Another good way not to suck. Give your front line fighter Strong Will. It is very likely that this character, above all others, will have his or her brains scrambled, and frequently. Strong Will can protect you from all kinds of mental conditions... Nothing is a sure thing, but it kicks in enough that it is noticeable, and very much so, especially when combined with a few luck raising items. It's a free chance to resist any hostile mental effect. Charm, daze, being frozen, being terrorised, all those conditions that take you out of the action, or worse, make you a supreme danger to your team mates. Nothing is worse than having your own fighter turn around and cut you to shreds. Quick Strike is your friend. You want this skill. Some dex and some weapon skill. Once you start adding points to this, you start adding a chance to get one or two extra action points at the start of a round, plus, it allows you to act first, which is critical. You don't want monsters acting first. Especially the endgame enemies. You want to fight the game on your terms. Keep your priest stocked with speed potions, so he or she can run away to a safe spot. Instead of reloading, and having to start the whole fight all over again, it is now possible to retreat, raise the dead, and return to hand out the beat downs. Your priest should have a good pair of running shoes, and if need be, the ability to carve him or her self an exit. While glass cannon priests are nice, and can cast a lot of spells, having a priest that is capable of surviving a lot of abuse and dishing out as good as they get is more important now. (Especially so on torment I am finding) I have found that I don't do much offensive holy magic on torment. I tend to conserve all my spell points for healing and such, because I do a lot of it. So it's important for them to be able to look after themselves. Let the enemy come to you, and pepper them with arrows and missiles. Starting combat, and having one fast character creep forward to taunt the enemy, and then leading them back to party waiting to ambush them is a good idea. Mages are typically resistant to just about everything. They are best dealt with at spear point. Or sword point. Turning them in to a pin cushion works too... But it's best to have somebody right in their face so their AI will make them run away, and they will get slowed when they run away, which means next turn, not enough action points to cast spells. Hammer them. Anatomy is noticeable. And it is a must have. Training a few levels of it is worth it. It is possible to do a whole lot of hurt with the right weapons and even just a few levels of anatomy. And near the end of the game, there are many enemies effected by anatomy. It is much easier to chop them down when you know how to impale them properly. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 12 2005 19:34
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quote:Bolt of Fire and Smite are just about useless against mages, gazers, and many other enemies. Poking them works. Spears do a lot of damage. Sliths get free pole arm skill levels. Quite a few over the course of the game. This is free damage. A nephil could work in this capacity, but... Bows do not do as much damage as a spear. The Jade Halbred is insanely powerful. There is also the Slith Blood Spear which does crazy amounts of raw physical damage. Also, bows do not get an anatomy bonus. It is very, very easy for a Slith priest to get anatomy as a skill, seeing as how they must pump the two compatable skills required to be effective, and having anatomy will also make your priest more effective in first aid, which is a nice side effect. Bows are better weapons for thieves, who are going to need every last skill point they can scrounge up for tool use and their own survival skills. Tool use, as mentioned, starts costing 10+ skill points at the higher levels. That's mage like dedication to a skill. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, December 12 2005 20:20
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No, I agree on the nephil mage and I'm a bit sorry I didn't think of it myself. Maybe it's my fondness for glass cannons, but I'm definitely in the sword-and-shield camp. The importance of my fighters was really in providing a barrier and mopping up the almost-dead. The firepower came from my casters. Against larger groups (several ogre fights come to mind), area spells are simply more effective. Against single enemies or small groups fighters hold their own, and then the casters can hang back to buff and heal. Any caster getting close enough to poke means something has gone wrong and a gamble is needed. I spent a lot of time having my casters with no points spent on archery take potshots at enemies. Actually, I purchased some dirt-cheap archery skills (take note!) specifically for this purpose. Against weak enemies Bolt of Fire and arrows were quite sufficient, and against tougher foes I didn't want to try poking. Parry, riposte, or simply missing are too likely to cause death. So if I was already using my casters as archers, and if I was already working with sky-high experience penalties, why not a little bit more for some very nice archery bonuses? I'm just not convinced that slith bonuses with polearms are worthwhile. I put exactly the same number of points into sword and spear skills for my human fighter and my slith fighter, so the slith had much higher skill and the stronger weapon, and they still did approximately equal damage. Maybe at higher levels it pays off more, since I concentrated more on defensive skills, Quick Action, and Quick Strike, but I'm not convinced. —Alorael, who also isn't sure about Strong Will. He's still searching for good fighter traits (Good Constitution has proven mostly worthless). On the other hand, even going to extravagant lengths to raise mental resistance hasn't helped at all, and he still just shells out the energy for Unshackle Mind as necessary (and avoids Haste). There seem to be any number of choices that look good in numbers but have little or no effect on gameplay. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, December 12 2005 21:00
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My human swordsman had Strong Will and my slith pole fighter did not. The slith definitely got charmed or terrified more often, though I didn't do a careful analysis of stat comparison, so it will take more experience and report to get a better grip on how useful it really is. Intelligence doesn't help a whole lot, that's for sure. Not really worth the investment as just pointed out. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Monday, December 12 2005 21:13
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Eh... just for some closure, I finally got into that difficulty 28 door. There was nothing of any great worth behind it. In fact, it was an incredible letdown. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, December 12 2005 22:19
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quote:Bring on the windows version! :D Seriously, I can't imagine it would be that hard. Jeff's combat is really easy. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 11:48
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quote:Expand your mind and be a bit more imaginative - it can be that hard. Particularly if you can't level up... Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6540
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 12:16
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I can't wait to finish it on normal so I can start my better-constructed torment party :D Posts: 11 | Registered: Monday, December 12 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 12:27
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I keep bogging down in Torment. Which I find annoying. I have found that I can get through the first area well enough, start having some slight trouble around Formello, and then once I move in to the Eastern Gallery, I am dead meat. It's very embarassing having my tentacles handed to me time after time. Edit. I think more archery is needed. Somehow. Four characters is just not enough. I really need five or six. I believe dealing with Torment will come down to avoiding going toe to toe with monsters at all costs at some point. Bugs are bad mmmkay? [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:34: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 14:34
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OK, I posted in the Hidden Skills thread what I was finally able to find behind that pesky L35 door we've been bantering about. I think it would be good to keep this thread free of spoilers, so the new gamers can get tips here without ruining the fun of discovery. Here is some resulting advice from my experimenting with Tool Use and Unlock Doors, also now knowing what is behind the two most difficult doors in the game. Giving a mage Tool Use skills definitely does help his magical ability to open doors, so you might want to consider making a Mage/Thief PC, though this will cut into his overall magical strength somewhat. For traps in the game and many doors, Tool Use of 15 is adequate. If you don't want to give Tool Use to your mage at all, any reasonably strong mage by the end of the game can open a difficulty 25 door, of which there is at least one not otherwise opened. If you want to conserve all possible Tool Use points, you can acquire items by mid to late game which will add +3 to your Tool Use, so conceivably, you could stop at 12 Tool Use to get by all traps. There is a slight possibility that there is a trap of 16 difficulty, and if someone determines so, please let us know. Bottom line: The 28 and 35 difficulty level doors aren't hiding anything to die for, and for everything below that difficulty, any decent mage or a very strong thief will be able to open it. A thief with Tool Use of 15 can also serve as a decent fighter, archer, or mage no problem. [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 14:39: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 18:22
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quote:Why would I not be able to level up? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 18:27
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quote:If you look closely at what has already been said about that very issue, you would know. A single character will hit the experience cap way to early, and just when they really need experience, they will only be getting 1 experience point per kill. As it has been stated many times now, you will be penalised for trying to play a singleton. It is just not possible. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 18:30
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I have no doubt that it's possible, but it's harder in A4 than it has been in any previous non-GF Spiderweb game. You'd really have to be careful at points. I wonder if Drakey has tried it. [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 18:34: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 18:39
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Someone will attempt and eventually succeed at being a singleton, I expect. I think what will happen is this: you will level up thrillingly fast until level 8 or so. By level ten, around Fort Draco, you are getting 0 or 1 point per kill (this is how far I took a singleton game). Completing quests still gives you unknown amounts of XP which your singleton will gobble up. At some point, you will be behind the level up curve for a normal party and will again begin to get decent points per kill. But I believe that by that point, you will be far too behind in skills to match the strength of your foes and will have a very hard time killing anything. I am looking forward to hearing how it goes. I know I don't presently have the patience or masochistic tendencies to follow through with it myself. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 18:50
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I seriously doubt that any Singleton will survive the Tower Colony encounter. Froze = Dead. Edit. With Strong Will, there is a small chance of resisting the freezing assault and keeping your senses. I can not discount that as a possibility. But I would seriously doubt that anybody playing a Singleton would take that as a trait, seeing as how some sort of natural mage, pure spirit, elite warrior, or divine blood trait combo is far more likely, none of which will do you any good the first time you are dazed or frozen. [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 19:05: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 18:58
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Caught out. Yes, I'm guilty of not reading the thread properly. Sorry about that, but there's only so much tactical discussion of a game I can't play that I can find interesting. :P Anyway, levelling up problems likely won't be much of an issue. "Be tougher than the other guy" is an effective tactic, but I don't use it too often. I'm more a fan of "Don't get hit". Okay, I'll stop flexing my e-muscles now and just wait for the windows version so we can see how it goes. [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 18:59: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 19:02
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You might make that a bit more cryptic, Vlish. That kind of one-liner will read as an immediate spoiler in the "active threads" header, and I think we should keep spoilers in Kel's thread or the Skills thread. But I have a very hard time imagining a singleton enduring many fights. Yet, some whacked die-hard will find some painful way to pull it off. [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 19:04: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 19:03
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quote:Trust me. You will have all of the toughness of a wet kleenex in this game. I don't care if you are a peanut or a brazil nut, there are enemies in this game armed with nutcrackers for whatever type of nut you are. I look forward to your reports of having your tail kicked. :D -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 19:39
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Is playing A4 singleton seriously that much harder than playing Diplomacy With The Dead level 1, fully disadvantaged, and with no magic? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 19:57
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quote:Ever seen that movie Starship Troopers? Avernum is swarming, [b]SWARMING[/b] with bugs now. There are also ogres, capable mages, archers that hide behind well defended murder holes, more bugs, assassins with absolutely deadly poison attacks and insanely high levels of quick action that will pump you full of poison, undead that you must allow to hit you first before you can damage them, and they hit hard, more bugs, demons, insane necromancers, power hungry necromancers, insane power hungry necromancers, gazers, eyebeasts, giants that will overrun you in swarms, terror wolves that will chomp your bones, drakes, crocolisks, basilisks, mutant lizards by the dozens, liches, more bugs, and let us not forget the pylons. LOTS of pylons. Pylons that fire mind control terror rays, death rays, freeze rays, burning rays, pain pain pain! Oh, and more bugs. Remember to bring your bug spray. You are going to be cleaning out many bug infestations. People's cellars are infested with bugs, various caves, a hive, oh geeze there are bugs everywhere. Edit. Also forgot. Muggerers, buggerers, murderers! That's Hedley! [ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 19:59: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 20:01
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:D And let me add... ROTFL Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, December 13 2005 20:03
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quote:I'll take that as a no. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |