A4 Hidden Skills [SPOILERS]

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AuthorTopic: A4 Hidden Skills [SPOILERS]
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #0
I'm working on figuring out what triggers the special skills, of which there are many in A4. This would be ten times easier if I had a character editor instead of having to type in "iwanttobestronger" dozens of times to get the skill points to experiment.

Anyway, following is what I have determined so far. When you achieve one of these special skills this way, instead of through special armor or other artifacts, they become trainable.

6 Dexterity + 6 Defense = Parry
6 Dexterity + 6 Melee = Quick Strike
6 Strength + 8 Dexterity = Gymnastics
8 Intelligence + 6 Priest or Mage spells = Magery

I haven't been able to find Riposte yet, but I think it is going to be based on some combination of Parry + ? (Strength/Quick Action/Quick Strike/Gymnastics/Blademaster). I haven't been able to find Blademaster yet either, but perhaps it is Melee +Strength...+ ?

Anyone else figure one out, please post it here.

[ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:08: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #1
Blademaster I believe takes pole arms, melee, and strength.

I forget the numbers.

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #2
For reference, this is what it was in BoA. As far as I can tell, for the most part, the physical skill requirements (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Endurance) have been dropped by 2, and the other reqs have stayed the same, although there may be exceptions.

[ Monday, December 12, 2005 12:55: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #3
Good link, Kel, thanks.

Resistance: Dex 10, Endurance 11, Hardiness 8

Crikey! Who wants to dump those kinds of points into either Endurance or Hardiness to get Resistance? Fortunately, there are alternate ways to wind up with each of the hidden skills than merely "qualifying".

EDIT ADDON:

These 8's are probably sixes for A4...

Blademaster: Melee 6 Pole 6 Strength 8
Riposte: Parry 8 Blademaster 6

But, man, I have to have 6 in Pole training to get Blademaster, and therefore to get Riposte? That blows. I should be able to get Riposte without having to know how to use a pole weapon. I'm just really good with my sword! 6 pole weapon is a lot of wasted skill points for a melee fighter. Disappointed.

[ Monday, December 12, 2005 23:09: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #4
Okay, thanks to Hawk King's handy "Experience of a Dragon" editor/cheater, I have been able to easily test out the rest of the hidden skills. Here are the resulting stats:

Parry : 6 Dexterity - 6 Defense
Quick Strike : 6 Dexterity - 6 Melee or Pole
Gymnastics : 8 Dexterity - 6 Strength
Blademaster : 6 Melee - 6 Pole - 6 Strength
Anatomy : 6 Intelligence - 8 Melee or Pole
Lethal Blow : 8 Anatomy - 8 Blademaster
Riposte : 8 Parry - 6 Blademaster
Sharpshooter : 6 Dexterity - 8 Bows or Thrown

Magery : 8 Intelligence - 6 Priest or Mage
Magical Efficiency : 8 Magery - 8 Endurance
Resistance : 8 Dexterity - 8 Endurance - 8 Hardiness

Hawk, somehow you got the total XP about right too...I wound up Level 33-34 at the end of my last game and you set your editor for around Level 34-35 worth of experience. This will also enable easy testing of how high you can reasonably get Tool Use stats or how hard it is to practically get Riposte, so I will tinker with those a bit and add some more results here.

[PAUSE...EDIT] Holy cow...I used up all but one Skill Point making a human fighter with no Traits able to train Riposte...this is all of 35 Levels worth of SP going into what it takes to make Riposte alone. This means, in order to get Riposte, you have to follow the training path pretty much exclusively and give most or all of your Wisdom Crystals and Knowledge Brews to the same fighter. This isn't cool, or Jeff didn't intend for it to really be trainable, only acquired through magical items. I suppose giving a human PC two negative traits could give him a couple more levels worth of skill points to play with, but that would be worth all of 2 Riposte or so.

On Tool Use, I used up ALL the Skill Points just to give one non-traited human PC 30 Tool Use. At that point, TU costs 16. That level 35 door is not going to be opened by a thief. It will take a mage powerful enough to do it. I had a mage able to open a level 25 door, but not a level 28 door at the end of my game. If I had streamlined him as a thief/mage with Tool Use and Mage strengths combined, maybe he could open that level 35 door.

Hmm, know what else, even if I edit in more SP after level 35, the Train screen will not permit any Tool Use over 30 to stick to my PC. It will definitely take magic to get in that door, because even with magical items to help, max Tool Use is 33. I think the Easter Egg for this game is behind that door.

[ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:24: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #5
Strength it seems, only needs to be cranked to a reasonable six at most and the rest made up with items.

I took strength up to 11 I believe it was on a melee fighter. The boost to damage was lackluster and sad.

After much trial and error, I found that adding points to the Blademaster skill return more damage per point spent than adding to strength, melee weapons, or polearms.

Dexterity though, can be cranked. Adds to armor, various resistances, to hit for both melee and missile, and it makes a finely tuned archer fierce.

Which is sad, because in melee, adding to strength adds hardly any noticeable effect, while adding to dexterity and the Sharpshooter skill makes an archer a death dealing machine.

However, Blademaster totally outshines the Sharpshooter skill in damage returns. So it balances out well enough.

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #6
Dexterity adds to armor? How's that? It does look like Dexterity is perhaps the most useful and pivotal skill overall. Strength contribution has definitely been toned down from A3 where I could kill an Alien Beast with two hits at the end.

Seems like the path to follow to make a powerful fighter is 6 Dex + 6 Def to get Parry, add some Parry, get Strength, Melee, and Pole all to 6 to get Blademaster, then pump Blademaster. If you want Anatomy, you have to add 6 Intelligence. 8 Anatomy and 8 Blademaster make Lethal Blow trainable, probably not the most useful trait. I never noticed Lethal Blow doing anything with the mild levels I had acquired from magical items later in the game.

I just checked Lethal Blow. If you streamline a human warrior straight through to Lethal Blow and nothing else, you can achieve 4 levels of Lethal Blow with 4 SP left over.

[ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:38: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator N:R Items The Lonely Celt A5 Items A5 Map
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #7
Anatomy is quite easy for a Slith priest to get. I mean, a priest needs the int anyway. Sort of a waste on a fighter.

Anatomy provides some sick damage though.

Edit.

Dexterity determines how hard you are to hit.

To see a stunning example of this, have two characters stand naked by some goblins. Have one character with 6 dex, and the other with the base 2.

[ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:40: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ]

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #8
What's the problem, Vlish...hard to hit the Edit button instead of the Quote button with that tentacle?

EDIT: Doh, you fixed that fast. (Advantages of being a Moderator) I bet no one else noticed, heh. Now I'm the moron stuck with a useless post. ;)

[ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:43: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator N:R Items The Lonely Celt A5 Items A5 Map
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #9
Well, I have chopsticks in one tentacle, the mouse in the other, and I am stuffing my self with some wickedly spicy coconut pineapple shrimp with rice and vegetables.

I am also typing one handed. Stupid little buttons. :mad:

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #10
Sounds...um...Delicious, Vlish.

[SPOILER AHEAD] I finally opened the L35 Door in the Patrick Tower. It took 12 Spellcraft and 16 Magery to do it with zero Tool Use. Maybe more Spellcraft and less Magery would have the same effect.

Leaving my Spellcraft at 8 and Magery at 6, 9 Tool Use did not open the door on about ten tries, but Tool Use of 10 enabled my mage to open it the first try each time.

Oh, what is in there you want to know? An Enduring Armor spellbook. Nothing too exciting, and not an Easter egg. There are two doors in the Tower Colony I am going to try next, though I am pretty sure those are not meant to open.

EDIT: The doors in the Tower Colony above X and the one in the barracks area upstairs in the Castle do not open. I think that accounts for every last door in the game now. So, if there is an Easter egg, it remains elusive.

[ Tuesday, December 13, 2005 14:15: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #11
How could Jeff be so cruel as to deny us the wonderful eggy goodness of a good Easter Egg?

And all I can say is, I wish I'd had that editor before I'd gone psycho on that one door...

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #12
And what was behind the door in Dorikas' headquarters that didn't want to open?

Anybody?

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #13
Because of the diligent efforts of Ephesos last night with his mighty rogue, we know that behind Door #28 lies......

....

.....

120 coins
1 invulnerability potion
1 Mass Haste scroll
and 6 Fine Razordisks

Talk about anti-climactic.

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator N:R Items The Lonely Celt A5 Items A5 Map
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #14
You can never, ever have to many group haste scrolls.

Rare as bloody hen's teeth.

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5268
Profile #15
There is nothing behind the doors above X in the Tower Colony. (Or at least, there was nothing behind them when you could get beyond them in an earlier version.)
Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #16
Define "nothing." I always imagined they connected to the other partially caved-in area upstairs with the gated off area where you can see a book lying on the floor out of reach. Were there rooms or passages past the doors at all? I'm thinking they may have been for something Jeff never got around to employing, along with that door in the Castle barracks.

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5268
Profile #17
I should be more precise: The door above X has (had) an empty room behind it. Its dimensions are roughtly the same as those of the other rooms above X - i.e. quite small and rectangular.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 6556
Profile #18
Ok, I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but my mage is at Int 8 and Mage 6, and there's nothing that indicates the Magery skill being available. What am I doiing wrong!!
Posts: 6 | Registered: Thursday, December 15 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #19
If you have the Natural Mage trait, the bonus to your Mage skill doesn't count towards special skills.

—Alorael, who can't think of any other plausible reasons.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #20
Note also that you will get free bonus level ups to your Mage or Priest skills with Natural Mage and Pure Spirit respectively, as well as two free Priest spell levels to begin with for Pure Spirit. These also may not count towards Magery.

The same is true for my nephil archer to whom I am trying to make trainable in Sharpshooter. He begins with Sharpshooter (because I gave him Deadeye) and free Dexterity bonuses, so I am at more than 6 Dexterity and 8 Bows with him, but he is still not trainable with Sharpshooter.

You may have to pay attention to how many "free" levels of the relevant skill you start with and gain along the way to figure out how many more levels you have to add yourself to get a special skill. It would be nice to somehow see how much added level a PC has in addition to its total for this reason.

[ Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:13: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator N:R Items The Lonely Celt A5 Items A5 Map
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #21
Yeah, it might be nice to go back to the more informative Nethergate-style stat sheet. I had so many items giving bonuses to various stats that I could never train in anything despite being well beyond the needed reqs as far as I could tell.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #22
I kept track by the skill point cost of raising a skill, not the amount of skill displayed. It was much more accurate.

For even more fun, I made sure to remove all equipment before training.

—Alorael, who still loves Nethergate's stat system. It's pretty, clean, and you don't end up experience penaltied to death. Plus getting that clink sound so often is just so satisfying!
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 6556
Profile #23
Me again, still struggling with secret skills! If I understood the earlier answers to my question (this humble apprentice thanks you, wise ones!) I should be gettiing Magery at Int 8 / Mage 8. Yes? But it's not happening. I do have lots of untrainable Magic Efficiency, though. My mage/priest with Natural Mage and Pure Spirit now has Int 9, Mage 8 and Priest 7, and 6 points of untrainable Mag Eff. My Pure Spirit Priest has Int 9, Priest 8 and 4 untrainable Mag Eff. (Yes, this is without skill boosting equipment.) Am I still missing something? Is this perhaps a bug? Should I give up trying to understand the inner workings and just bumble on like the lowly apprentice I am?
Posts: 6 | Registered: Thursday, December 15 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #24
Natural Mage gives an increase in Mage skill and Pure Spirit gives an increase in Priest skill, but these bonuses do not count towards the eight points you need to train in Magery.

The easiest way to get Magery is to raise the appropriate skill (Mage or Priest) one point, close the training window, and reopen it to see if you have Magery. You'll get there eventually.

—Alorael, who actually isn't sure that Mage is the quickest choice for the Natural Mage. One more point in Priest will give him his necessary eight points, but one more point in Mage may still leave him with less than eight in non-bonus.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00

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