Character builds
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, May 22 2006 21:21
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Vlish and others have posted a number of interesting character builds since the release of G3. Shaper - Deadweight Shaper - blessing/dazing magic user Shaper - Missile Guardian - Missile Guardian - Melee Agent - Melee Agent - all out mental magic Agent - all out battle magic Have I missed any? (Noobs, this is not an invitation to post "I made a guardian with skills X and Y" or whatever. Please.) What else is out there? THE SHAPING AGENT One type of build that hasn't gotten so much investigation is guardians and agents relying on shaping. I was looking into the mechanics of shaped creature stats today, and I think shapers have less of a monopoly there than is commonly assumed. (Certainly less than I've always assumed.) This is because a cheap, weak creation, when levelled up appropriate, is largely indistinguishable from better creations. The first hurdle is essence: guardians and agents get 75% the essence of shapers, plus shapers get a bonus to Intelligence. This cramps shaping early on, but if you aren't a shaper, you can just use usual guardian or agent tactics to survive early. Later, this may make it impractical to deploy Eyebeasts or other overpriced creations, but there's nothing stopping you from using, say, a bunch of Vlish. The other hurdle is creation strength. Agents especially won't be pumping their shaping stats too high. This, too, can be compensated for by relying on weak creations, making them early, and allowing them to level up with you. They won't be as strong as pimped out shaper creations, but they'll be perfectly usable. This is, admittedly, a more strategically demanding build than a pure shaper is. There are potential advantages, though. Let's look at an agent using vlish. The agent will be 3-5 skill levels behind the shaper in Magic Shaping, for any given point investment. That skill, however, is only relevant when you first make the creations, so you can push it early and then ignore it. OTOH, the agent will be 3-4 levels ahead in missile ability (missiles + dex) for the same investment. The agent will also be 2-3 levels ahead in mental magic and 1-2 levels ahead in blessing magic, plus 1-2 points ahead in spellcraft. There are some other differences on both sides (quick action, battle magic, healing craft, etc) but those can be worked around. The main reason to go through all that is that (unlike previous games) mental magic requires dedicated attention for it to be effective throughout the game. With Daze and other spells at full effectiveness, you end up with a team of creations that basically use agent tactics to survive. The vlish can incapacitate several creatures easily; the agent, with some points in Quick Action, can pre-emptively daze anything that's fast or close enough to threaten the safety of the vlish, as well as using missile and wands in tough spots. Your creations will be weaker, but you end up with more tactical options. My plan is to complete the first island spending as few skill points as possible -- probably using items to help it along. As soon as I get to Harmony, make a beeline for San Ru and pick up Create Vlish. Dump the skill points into some appropriate combination of Intelligence and Magic Shaping, and make a squadron of vlish. Fill them out a little over the next few levels, then start putting points where they belong, probably starting with Mental Magic. After a little while, life is good. I'm probably overlooking something, of course. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 00:15
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Interesting try. I have just never been able to keep any creations alive for very long, except as a Shaper. I've never tried to make them as an Agent, and as a Guardian, they just always die at some disappointingly early stage, and I do okay without them, so I give up the struggle. And if you can't keep them alive early, you certainly can't do it later: a levelled-up Fyora or a brand-new Drayk, may be fine in the middle game, but a brand-new Fyora is just floor polish walking. I'd like to see a squad-leader Guardian. The idea seems to make sense to me. Guardians are supposed to be decent at shaping, and their personal support in battle ought to be able to turn the tide. It has just never worked for me, despite a couple of tries. My guys always die before they learn enough to survive. But a shaping Agent, that seems perverse. It's not supposed to be a good idea. What it should do is make a weak character, with too few creations to be good, and too little spare Essence to cast enough spells. If it does work, that will be dismaying, but interesting. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 02:57
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What about the Guardian Mage? -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 05:04
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A guardian who focuses on magic is significantly worse than a melee agent in a number of ways. It's just not a good build. Unfortunately, I'm also reconsidering the shaping agent. I did some more math, and things aren't as pretty as I'd hoped. I forgot that G2 and G3 still implement 10- and 20- caps on shaping skill effects. This means that, given reasonable skill point investment, a shaper will use 34 skill points to reach 10 in magic shaping, versus an agent using 70 skill points. The problem is that Create Vlish typically becomes available before you've accrued much more than 70 skill points, yet without points into Intelligence, an agent can basically make one vlish at that point. The agent can put more points into Intelligence, but subsequent vlish lose out on levels gained through experience. Meanwhile, the comparable shaper is done on this front and gets ~20 skill points while the agent is catching up, making up for the shaper's more critical lags in magic skills. So the shaper gets extra essence forever and slightly better vlish (averaging 1-3 levels better, depending on how many you make), whereas the agent gets slightly better stats in a few random places. And I had such a good name, too -- Sss-Vlish. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 05:05: Message edited by: 84,000 Stupas ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 05:21
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quote:Remember how we're not trying to combine worlds here? -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 05:25
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I made an Agent named Phobia that used Vlish. Just Vlish and mental magic. Nothing else. Many shapers have been made in this manner... It's my nightmarish Mindbender Shaper. The Agent was quite effective... But did not play like an Agent. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 06:34
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quote:By using the editor, I can tell you that a Guardian Mage is pretty powerful. Expecially for the strong daze. Yes, maybe the solution would be a Mental/Blessing Guardian Mage! Or maybe not. :P -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7002
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 06:47
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quote:There's the thing. You're using the editor. That completely breaks the game. Using the editor to create a powerful character isn't a valid argument. If you have a 30 in each stat, no matter what class it is, it will be good at everything. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 07:02
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Agents are better at melee than Guardians. Somebody broke that down and ran the numbers. The poor guardian keeps getting short changed. It's the magic you know... Shapers and Agents have skills available and greatly magnify their combat abilities. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 07:55
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This time, it really is me you're thinking of. ;) Agents aren't actually better at melee skills. (They are better at missile skills, which is silly, but hey.) They are nearly as good at melee. What makes them better for a melee build is the truly horrific number of skill points a guardian has to plunk down in order to access the good pump spells, which are key for any good melee fighter. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 08:01
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quote:I totally agree with you, in fact I haven't played and finished GF2 and GF3 by using the editor. I simply pimped the Magic skills of my Guardian for see if he can be good at Magic. And it worked, adding only 8 to MM, BM and BLM. It was just to see. And I haven't saved after that! ;) I'm not totally "pure" because the canister using, so I don't want to be totally "impure" by maximize my stats! :) (And I'm strong enough, don't need to cheat :P ) -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 09:04
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Magma, the ONLY differences between the classes are the cost to train in different skills, the base skills you start with, and slightly different formulas for HP, energy, and essence. A guardian with 8 battle magic and an agent with 8 battle magic will cast exactly the same strength battle magic spells. But it will take way more skill points to get the guardian there. Therefore, magic-reliant guardians are worse than magic-reliant agents. Using the editor ignores almost all distinctions between classes. Do you understand why your comments about a character you created by breaking the rules of the game are not relevant in a discussion about characters that follow the rules of the game? If not, allow me to quote myself: quote: [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 09:06: Message edited by: 84,000 Stupas ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 09:22
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I would like to see it clarified whether the 'squad-leader Guardian' is really a different build, since as I said, all my Guardians have quickly become singletons. (Don't get me started on Alwan.) Or do other people have melee or missile Guardians who successfully and effectively bring along a few creations? If so, what am I missing? If not, what would it take to make a squad leader? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 09:40
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I tend to run a guardian plus magic creations. Make an artila as early as possible, at some point upgrade to a terror vlish, then switch to a gazer when available. I don't spend any points on other shaping skills. No magic except for healing craft & 2 points of blessing magic. It works, just about, but my guardian seems to spend a lot more of his time healing than he does waving a sword about. Very reliant on pods and crystals. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 10:06
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quote:Playing on easier difficulty level. :P More seriously, effective builds depend on difficulty and what game you are talking about. I suspect that abusing Parry in Gf2 would let you use any guardian you want, as long as you had 15+ Parry and used the Guardian as a bait, while your creation(s) held back and used ranged attack. Similarly with difficulty levels, a build that is good for Torment, might be less effective on Normal or Easy. (If every weak Fyora can kill an enemy in 1 hit, a swarm of weak creatures is more effective than a couple of strong ones, because there is no bonus for overkill.) Similarly, stunning is less effective on normal difficulty, because it's easier to just kill an enemy faster using a more damaging creation than to stun them using a Vlish. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 10:30
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The Guardian poops out I believe because you spend so many skill points trying to get a little bit of magic that it actually hurts your other skills. I never actually put any magic at all on my Guardians any more and my builds have increased their odds of survival greatly. Sort of like how investing an odd point or two in shaping can actually break an Agent from overpowering Goddess to struggling to survive. Squad leaders work just fine... A little int, a little str, some shaping. A Guardian doesn't actually need to invest a single point in melee to do huge damage. Isn't that something? By the end of the game, your to hit and damage will be just fine and melee weapons will be 10 or more just through trainers and items... Or canisters. And all of the best weapons (for torment) are ancillary in nature, like the Stunning Blade, Oozing Blade, and the Frozen Blade. You get so much more mileage out of these weapons than say, a Guardian Claymore. All you really need is to invest in missiles to manage mobs on torment. The rest of your skill points can go to other places, like jacking up your physical stats and boosting your shaping skills. Also, I have found, Guardians do much better on Torment with battle creations. At least a few. The reason is very simple. With an alpha or two with you on the front lines, the enemy is busy beating on them... When the enemy is beating on them, they are not beating on you. You have a lot more staying power when you have assistance on the front lines. Battle creations work as a sort of damage control system. Odds are, with three thahds say, in the beginning, and one of you, there is a 3/4 chance that an enemy will be attacking one of your decoys and not you. I shouldn't need to explain how powerful this is. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 11:03
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Part of the trouble may be that I always go for Unlock, but then leave dozens of living tools in caches. Maybe indeed I should totally abandon magic with Guardians, pick a creation type, and really try hard to keep the suckers alive. In order for this to be fun, and not just like playing a combination of lousy Shaper and wimpy Guardian, I think I would have to keep my own offense strong, and keep a few creations alive until they levelled up high -- which my Shapers never do, because they are constantly upgrading. This would make for a different enough game that it could be fun, I think. Maybe my next project should be a squad leader Guardian in G2. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 11:11
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Hunter Guardians in G3 are sort of addictive. Missiles period are sort of addictive. Jeff, if you read this... WE NEED MORE MONSTER BITS IN G4 TO MAKE NEAT THINGS TO THROW! I had a Guardian in G2 that had a whole army but never shaped a single thing. He brought along those two serviles that you can find, along with various monsters he picked up along the way. Since you could not control them, each battle was sort of an "every man for himself" sort of affair. It got... Hectic! The Vlish and the Battle Alpha you can find were most helpful. And the Huge Roamer. Edit. And yes, I did that on torment. Xander and Whatsisname Blade did just fine and were the core support of my army. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:12: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 11:32
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quote:My apologize. quote:In GF3, I always allow only one creature to follow me. But this work only if you spent some points on Intelligence and if you give all your essence to power-up your creation. But, again, this work only before you start meeting Drakons and other strong battles. When this happen, you have to save some essence. I think. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:36: Message edited by: MagmaDragoon ] -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 17:14
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quote:This is of course very true. I meant to imply G3, and I certainly meant to imply higher difficulty level. On Easy and Normal pretty much any character can be successful. That's nice, because it allows you to be flexible and try stuff out and have fun, but it also makes this kind of list pointless. So let's stick to G3, tougher difficulties. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7152
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 18:27
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Hmm. Well, I didn't really get a vlish, and I don't play on torment (but I did work up to tricky this time!) but I did try out an agent with an artila. I loaded as many points as possible into leadership and mechanics so that I could pass the test ASAP. I didn't even fight my way through all of the Eastern Road, just made a mad dash for the door. Fyoras don't seem to work well with agents for me (fire shaping is expensive, magic shaping less so), but provided that I can keep the artila alive, it does level quite nicely. It hits more often and for more damage than a fyora, without me bothering to spend essence on its stats. It does kind of mean that I have to quicksave constantly, in case something even looks in the artila's direction (at least until it got enough hit points to wait for me to heal it), but I tend to do that anyway. I die a lot, hehe. There *was* a bit of lag time while I had to level to get more essence and also to generally level the artila. But when I did level some more, I didn't make a second artila, so I still had plenty of essence for my purposes. Towards the end of the demo, I actually made one vlish, but then I realized that there was nothing left alive to test it on, so I'm not sure if I should have decided to trade in the artila or level again. (I'm still debating whether to get the full game. I got Geneforge 1 but kept getting stuck mid-game, don't want a repeat of that.) My character probably *was* weaker than more typical agents. But the plan, in general, did work. I could cast daze, then use my agent, Greta, and the artila to take out enemies one by one. We totally trashed that spawner at the end of the first island. Acid and poison rock when you're the one using them. Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, May 22 2006 07:00 |