Demons or not?
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 09:30
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On the encyclopedia, we're having a bit of an issue with taxonomy. Most of Jeff's creatures fit into a definite category - feline, reptile, undead, etc. There are some odd ones that aren't really explained anywhere in the games. One of them is the rakshasa (ready, TM?), and another is the efreet. With both of them, I've had an impression they could be classed as demonic creatures (I remember TM's version of Rakshasi history is somewhat more complex though). Neither term is original (like Nephilim). A Rakshasa is a demon or evil spirit in Hinduism (though as little in cat-shape as Nephilim are). An Efreet is a kind of Jinn, an Arabic mythological creature. Not necessarily demonic, although it is depicted as a demon of fire in Final Fantasy games, apparently. Then I realized neither of them can be hurt by Repel Spirit at level 3 - usually a fool-proof way of determining demon/undead nature. Still, I'd like to hear opinions and explanations regarding this, if anyone has some. Are efreeti and rakshasi demons? And if not, what are they? [ Thursday, January 12, 2006 09:38: Message edited by: Arancaytar ] Poll Information This poll contains 2 question(s). 24 user(s) have voted. You may not view the results of this poll without voting. function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=TtUrcwvkxNHX"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=TtUrcwvkxNHX"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window   -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6666
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 10:19
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The way I've always thought of the efreet is, like you said, that they are fire genies (djinn/jinn). Therefore, even though they are mystical creatures, they aren't demons per se. (I did vote yes on the efreet being classified as demons however, since having them as a class of their own seems kind of dumb.) And the Rakshashi are, the way I see it, basically very nasty, magical cats. Their behavior is actually very similar to mind flayers in D&D. They value other humanoids only as slaves and tend to keep to themselves. So a definite 'no' on them being demons - just classify them as feline. Oh, and I've never read TM's writings on them, so I can't really say anything about that. Posts: 353 | Registered: Monday, January 9 2006 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 11:04
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They are all creatures from different planes of existence (parallel dimensions). Demons come from Hell, making them spirits or undead. The efreet and rakshasa are from other planes, and would be the sentient (and presumably top of food chain) in their respective dimensions. So, label the entire group as extra-dimensional. Shouldn't vahnati be included in that group as well??? ;) -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 11:15
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Vahnatai. I'm willing to consider TM's theory of Rakshasi coming from another dimension, and at least briefly explore the possibility of Drakey's Vahnatai Creationism, but once you consider the Vahnatai aliens who first came from another dimension and then created all sentient life here, it's a bit much... So Rakshasa are to cats what the Great Old Ones are to squids? :P -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 11:40
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What I'm doing in Chill Factor is a little on Efreets. My story is they were one of the two oldest races (Efreet and demons) from a time when the world was full of fire. They are like demons in many ways (attunement to fire, decent magic users, "immortal"), but different in others. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 11:42
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My feeling is no and no. They're both magical creatures, and they both don't like humans, but for all we know, they might be Hostile Type B if they're put around demons who are Hostile Type A, so to speak. They seem like magical beings but not demons. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 13:02
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I find the extra-planar explanation fairly plausible, in that it explains their arrogance and magical skills, as well as their relative rarity in the game world (except in poorly-made scenarios). However, I highly doubt that said extra plane is shared with demons... I can't see three very arrogant and magical semi-humanoid races getting along very well in any context. What would be cool to see in a scenario would be an extra spell (in the sense of Canopy's extra spells) that only affects Efreet and Rakshasi. Something like "Banish", a rough analogue to booting them back to their home plane. EDIT: Just to be clearer, I think neither of them are demons. [ Thursday, January 12, 2006 13:03: Message edited by: Ephesos ] -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 13:52
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Rakshasi live in another dimention, but they're native to Ermarian. (Vantanas in particular.) (At the beginning of rakshasic history, it's roughly 500 years before the beginning of the Empire and 1000 years before Exile/Avernum.) They're not demons- although they are a highly magical race. They used to be ruled by a group called the Skullz, led by Tigerfang (some of you may notice which other rakshasa's name this sounds like) and his assistant, the "Amalgamator". The Skullz were shattered by Olindbar, who became the first "king" of their collective-style society. They were living on Vantanas until a dragon demigod named Shale forced them into another plane of existence called Arngoth. Olindbar II managed to brutally wound Shale with his heavily enchanted equipment, but he couldn't kill Shale before Shale literally drew the sun down from the skies in a pin-pointed beam aimed at Olindbar II. (He died.) (It's at roughly this point that the Exile/Avernum series takes place.) The Rakshasi lived in Arngoth for a while, but during Olindbar III's infancy, some of the elite magi of the Rakshasi anonymously formed an organization called the "Black Cube", which controlled politics, magic, et cetera, and was intent on taking over all of the Rakshasic people. An anonymous mage and a cadre of magic users of a previously-unknown species battled the five magi out of Arngoth, freeing it. Olindbar III came unto his own as his nation's leader, but soon, there were rumors that Shale had teleported into Arngoth and begun wiping out cities. Olindbar III recovered the items used by his father, but an anonymous mage tipped him in to the real nature of the problem. Deacon, his mentor in the ways of magic and close friend, had been plotting a takeover of the Rakshasic kingdom by using a massive army of golems. Olindbar III and the anonymous mage attacked Deacon, only barely winning out. Deacon fled, and the Rakshasi were safe, although Vantanas had since been rendered inhabitable due to the arrival of a new, malicious and highly lethal race called the Pheadrans. (At this point, roughly 500 years have passed since the Exile/Avernum games.) The Rakshasic nation has been mostly still ever since. Olindbar IV helped Katothen and his organization of Sanctuary prevent Deacon and his fledgeling organization, the Red Chaemeleon, from gaining a foothold in the Empire. (Deacon escaped. Again.) ... The average rakshasic lifespan is long. Just like with humans, older rakshasic wizards can extend their lives by way of magic. (Deacon is, at the time of the Empire's fall, somewhere around 1.6k years old, making him one of the oldest beings on Ermarian.) The Rakshasi seen anywhere on Ermarian are remnants from the days of the Skullz- most of them came from Rakshasi who never recognized Olindbar I as a leader, but some of them never fully realized that the Skullz were finished off. Regardless, they're totally isolated from the rest of the Rakshasic Nation, and scarcely know that it still exists, nevermind where it is or how to get to it. In other words, they're simple bandits. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 13:57
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A data point: in Exile 2, Demonslayer and Ravage Spirit did work against Rakshasi, so it seems that at that point Jeff considered Rakshasi to be demons. This was changed by BoE, in which demon-slaying weapons and spells no longer affect Rakshasi; I'm not sure whether or not they were considered demons in Exile 3. I don't believe Demonslayer or Ravage Spirit ever worked against efreeti, though. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4001
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 14:34
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I cannot remember any place in E3 or A3 where Rakshasi occur... Oh, by the way, is BoE older than A1, or only older than A2? I'd guess that once he's "de-demonized" rakshasi in one game, they'd stay like that, so they would be demons only in the earlier games, and not thereafter. -------------------- I may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. I must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. I must protect my own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law. Posts: 21 | Registered: Tuesday, February 17 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 14:40
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If someone classifies efreeti as demons, it's probably because of propaganda and the interpretation of all Middle-Eastern mythological creatures as "demons" by people who were less than informed. Now for the Rakshasa... Since TM has based work on the subject, I'm happy enough to not care in this medium(BoX). However, in the original myths they are tiger-demons. -Aran: You are a bad person. Shame on you, logging in with another account to vote! [ Thursday, January 12, 2006 14:41: Message edited by: Knotty ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 15:04
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I have voted with only one account. As the maker of the poll, it would be highly idiotic of me to skew the result. -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 15:05
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quote:NW area of the world map. Some silly abandoned port. Just don't drink the wine... -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6666
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 15:06
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quote:A seemingly abandoned town far to the north-west, beyond Wainscotting (can't remember the name). There was a bar and a bartender. I seem to remember it going so that you had something to drink, then noticed the bartender become a Rakshasha, and the entire town filled with them. Then good times were had by all. And BoE is older than Avernum. EDIT: Damnit, that's what you get for double-checking your spelling. [ Thursday, January 12, 2006 15:07: Message edited by: Proud Owner of: ] Posts: 353 | Registered: Monday, January 9 2006 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 15:21
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The town was called Erox. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 15:32
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Oh right. One of the places I've never been to either in E3 or in A3, for some reason. -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, January 12 2006 22:03
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Erox was probably the only worthwhile bit of E3/A3. Now if JV made an entire game like that- ie, throwing surprises and making a legitimately surreal RPG environment- I think we'd all be thrilled. But that will never happen. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, January 13 2006 03:06
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They're also in the place where you go to get the Black Halberd. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |