US and Sudan
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 19:42
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Regarding driving the other side into the sea: Hamas, the Palestinian party whose platform is to "drive Israelis into the sea" won the last election. The only party in Israel that advocated removing Palestinians from West Bank was outlawed and just wearing their t-shirt is a crime in Israel. Any attempt to draw a moral equivalence between the Palestinians, majority of whom voted for the party advocating complete destruction of Israel and the Israelis, majority of whom agreed to completely ban the party that advocated removal of all Palestinians, looks wrong to me. You have to realize that not everything in the world is relative and sometimes "this guy's truth" and "the other guy's truth" aren't equally valid. As for negotiations in the 90s, Israelis agreed to as many demands as they could, while Palestinians refused to bulge an inch. According to Dennis Ross, the mediator of the talks, Arafat refused to give a counter-proposal to any Israeli offer of compromize and instead added more and more demands. For example, the issue of refugees wasn't even brought up until Israel agreed to most Palestinian demands that were on the table at the time. [ Tuesday, May 02, 2006 20:29: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 21:28
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quote:This is the statement that I cannot believe. I cannot believe that the Palestinians as a whole are morally inferior to the Israelis as a whole. The Palestinians may overall support more hard-line rhetoric, but they're in a more desperate situation, which almost invariably leads to more desperate attempts to get out of it. I'd look closer at an argument that Arafat and other members of the Palestinian leadership have been, individually, miserable human beings, though. That argument may have some merit. Individual people can be evil, but characterizing entire ethnic groups as evil tends to be wrong and leads to really, really bad things. quote:I do realize this. I'm not arguing that there are multiple truths to be had here. There are facts that cannot be disputed. However, interpreting these facts is not as trivial as you would make it out to be. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 23:54
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quote:More desperate situation? More desperate than facing an enemy who's only stance is to destroy the other side. In case you forgot to read that part of Zevis's post, the only party that supports that is outlawed in Israel while being the most popular in palestinian-controlled lands. Who, by the way, are surrounded by allies. Which by default means they have extra backing when threatening Israel with anything. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 00:35
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The Israelis and the Palestinians have both suffered abuse. I think it's fair to say that they both feel like they're in desperate positions. I'm inclined to agree with Zeviz that fighting over whose position is more desperate is pretty pointless. I think it's completely understandable that most Israelis think they are morally in the right. Most Palestinians think they're morally in the right, too. Is that because they have a warped sense of morality, and they're evil? No, it's because they have experienced vastly different pieces of the same conflict. Their analyses of what has gone interpret the same things in vastly different ways. Zeviz is right that the truth isn't subjective. In most conflicts like this, both sides end up unintentionally distorting the truth. It would be absurd to suggest that no Palestinians have ever done anything wrong in this conflict. It would be equally absurd to suggest the same thing of the Israelis. But when you feel set upon, obviously you are going to focus more on the ways you have been wronged, than on things you might have done wrong. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 01:23
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quote:Israel is backed by the US though, and even after Iraq, it is hard to find an ally with more firepower. Incontinental firepower. Besides, doesn't Israel have nuclear weapons? -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 01:34
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Yes. And superior firepower is the only reason Israel still exists. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 02:21
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I am probably precluding the Procrastinator with this, but an analogy I once heard comes to mind. Picture a man riding on a tiger. He's very firmly seated, and can keep the tiger from throwing him off. But as soon as he dismounts, the tiger will attack him. It's not an enviable position. You can't rely on superior firepower forever - in the long run, the only way to live with your neighbors is to make peace with them, not to cow them into submission. It may seem like you're doing all you can to make peace, and the others aren't giving an inch, but the belligerence and retaliatory strikes are happening on both sides. Superior firepower may buy peace, but it's not a stable peace. And like in the Cold War, the only way to sustain it is to keep building weapons. More and more. -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 06:36
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quote:I stand by my statement, and I think the facts bear me out. EDIT: All I'm saying is that, if I suddenly had an identity transplant, I think I'd be better off becoming an Israeli than a Palestinian. [ Wednesday, May 03, 2006 07:42: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 06:56
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Nothing personal infernal666hate, but I am reading a lot of anger and hate in your posts. It's not becoming, and actually is a little off-putting. Good luck with your ever-developing crisis. Any news on the Sudan? It seems like every few hours something changes. This Yahoo News page indicates that things will soon change officially, but I've not found if that means anything in the real world to the real people affected by the war. Anyone have good knowledge on that aspect of things? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 17:04
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One of my favorite - by which I mean most entertaining - reads as far as military history goes is the eXile's War Nerd. He is entertaining and edifying on this topic as any other: http://www.exile.ru/2004-May-27/war_nerd.html Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 22:26
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Identity transplant? Don't you mean implant? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 07:17
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quote:Wouldn't that imply Kelandon currently is bereft of any identity? -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 07:57
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He just thinks he doesn't have any identity. It's there. *nods sagely* -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |