Modern day classics
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Apprentice
Member # 3673
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written Friday, March 31 2006 11:46
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Kelandon writes: "'Western' does not equal 'from Western Europe.' Compared to, say, China or Japan, Russia is a 'Western' entity." This only buttresses my point that there has never been any such thing as a "Western canon" if the "West" can be defined in such an elastic fashion. Russia is part of Eastern Europe; its cultural giants can be considered part of the "Western" canon only if we define the "West" to include anyone we want to. With people like Dostoyevsky, maybe the Russians bought admission into the "Western" canon, but not a one of Dostoyevsky's contemporaries would have considered him a "Westerner." This debate reminds me of the concept of race, to which it is of course closely related. As a matter of biological science, it is a settled issue that there is no such thing as "race." Race does exist socially, though, and its definition differs depending on where and when you are. There are plenty of "black" people in the United States who are "mulatto" or even "white" in Latin America. For empirical discussions of how racially ambigous white ethnics in the United States became "white" over time, I'd refer people to the work of historical scholars like David Roediger and Noel Ignatiev. This is a really interesting discussion, by the way, although I think it's a tangent from the original one. I partially blame myself for starting it. ;) Posts: 19 | Registered: Monday, November 10 2003 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, March 31 2006 11:53
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quote:This is just factually not true. Scientific studies have suggested that race is not a tremendously important trait — it certainly doesn't split humans into three difference species, as some pseudo-scientists once suggested — but it certainly does exist. And it's not a settled issue, either; the higher rates of certain genetic diseases among certain races (sickle-cell among those of African descent, for instance) is far from completely explained, much less "settled." The concept of a "Western canon" is fluid, but it is certainly not meaningless. The fact that Russian authors may or may not be in such a canon doesn't change the fact that Japanese authors (Tale of Genji, anyone?) or crappy European authors (Aethelweard has now become my classic example) are not in such a canon, and Shakespeare definitely is. EDIT: Whether such a concept is useful or not is another question, though. [ Friday, March 31, 2006 11:58: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3673
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written Friday, March 31 2006 12:08
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Kelandon "This is just factually not true. Scientific studies have suggested that race is not a tremendously important trait — it certainly doesn't split humans into three difference species, as some pseudo-scientists once suggested — but it certainly does exist." Oh yeh? Then could you tell me what the "races" are? How is it that a person can be "white" in Latin America and "black" in the United States? 18th and 19th century caricatures of Irish in the United States show them with exaggerated "Negro" features, and we have on record incidents like an Irish participant in the New York revolt of 1741 (a joint action between slaves and "indentured servants") saying that it was time to "kill all the white people." In South Africa, on the Cape, they used to determine who was "white" and who was "Coloured" under the apartheid racial laws by sticking a pencil in someone's hair and seeing if it fell out. Not very scientific. Yes, there is plenty of group variation, including susceptibility to diseases that is more prevalent in some groups than in others due to inherited genetic factors (e.g., sickle-cell anemia). But that's not the same as placing people into discrete "racial" categories. There is no such thing as race, nor was there any such thing as race until it was created about 500 years ago at the earliest, as a justification for slavery and colonialism. Posts: 19 | Registered: Monday, November 10 2003 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, March 31 2006 12:18
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Kelandon stated that race exists, not that everyone everywhere has always agreed on how to classify everyone's race. The 'straw man' fallacy is a fallacy, you know, not a brilliant debating tactic. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, March 31 2006 12:44
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Again, fluid is not the same as non-existent. The fact that people have used pseudo-science to classify races doesn't prove that races don't exist any more than Aristotle's pseudo-scientific laws of motion prove that Newton's laws of motion are wrong. The fact that some people are of mixed or complicated race doesn't prove that race doesn't exist any more than the fact that some people's sex is more chromosomally complicated than simply XX or XY proves that sex doesn't exist. The fact that there are social and cultural factors ("gender") involved in sexual identity doesn't disprove that sex exists in a biological sense, so why would social or cultural factors involved in racial disprove that race exists in a biological sense? [ Friday, March 31, 2006 12:46: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, March 31 2006 12:46
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Dikiyoba feels so small and uncultured now. Dikiyoba just picks out books that look interesting and reads them without pondering their current or future status. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Friday, March 31 2006 12:48
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I'm with ya. I stopped reading this topic when they started having huge debates over authors I did not know existed. :P -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, March 31 2006 13:18
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quote:You are mixing your terminology here. "Eastern Europe" v. "Western Europe" is a political distinction made during the Cold War. Since we are talking about culture here, "West" and "East" refer to, for luck of better distinction, Chrisitian Europe that likes to derive its cultural heritage from the Greeks vs. Asian cultures. And in that distinction, Russians justifiably consider ourselves to be part of Western tradition. Another way to see what is meant by "Western Canon" is to ask "what authors would a reasonably educated Western [however you define that term :) ] person be expected to know about". I mean people like Tolstoi and Shakespear, who have universal name recognition. As for books that will survive the test of time, there are two categories: books that get included into school curriculum ("War and Peace", "Romeo and Juliet", etc.) and books that are widely read, despite being intended just for entertainment (Duma, Jules Vern, etc.) The authors you referred to are candidates for the first category of immortality, while the authors listed by most other people on this thread are candidates for the second category. [ Friday, March 31, 2006 13:20: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, March 31 2006 13:26
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I'd agree definitely with Gunter Grass and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, although both could be seen in literature classes already. Also, Maus is completely different from anything listed but I'd argue that it's a definite classic. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |