Work Visas For Illegal Immigrants
| Author | Topic: Work Visas For Illegal Immigrants |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 01:03
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The Bush White House has lately been pushing a plan to give temporary work-visas to illegal immigrants. Personally, I agree with the idea, and this board having a pretty heavy internationalist streak means that a lot of you probably do too. What I'd like to ask is this: what do you think potential problems might be with it, and are those problems serious enough to rethink such a policy? Flex your critiquing muscles on this one. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 3477
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 05:40
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i think we might experience an illegal immigrant flood. with such new opportunities for them the mexicans will all attack our border. -------------------- Avernum is as addictive as skribbane!!! Withdrawal symptoms are harsh so I just keep playing. Free skribbane at Wal-mart Posts: 296 | Registered: Monday, September 22 2003 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 06:13
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I personally agree with the visa idea. There are a few issues: 1) There needs to be an increase in border control for this to be enforced, meaning an increase in cost. If we didn't have the conquests overseas, the US army would be the perfect candidate for this one. Now this probably means training more border guards. 2) In the event of violating the visas, a system of punishment needs to be worked out with the Mexican government. This will probably have to be much more severe than deportation. 3) Ensure that those with visas are treated fairly and accounted for by employers. They should have all rights as any other worker in this country including minimum wage. 4) Knowingly hiring illegal immigrants without visas needs to be very strictly punished. This includes heavy fines (in excess of $10 000) and probably prison terms. 5) We still need to address the real problem: poverty and corruption in Mexico. Although this may not be "our problem", it ultimately is if we want to limit illegal entry. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5619
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 06:20
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I agree with the waffle guy, there will be a flood of illigal immigrants pouring into our country. -------------------- If you fail to plan, you plan to fail. Posts: 90 | Registered: Wednesday, March 23 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 06:26
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quote:How do you reconcile this with the fact that if such a program would be put into place, stricter security would also have to be established to ensure enforcement? Why would there even be an increase from the status quo anyway? I don't see the logic. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4278
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 06:37
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quote:The conquests overseas, are the only reason the states are still the financia leviathan. Americans need wars to sustain their economy. quote:Perhaps they should be given a choice between the two choices given to domestic criminals: sodomy, or the electric chair/lethal injection quote:I completely agree. quote:Dammit, I read a really good article pertaining to this, but it'll probably take me days to find a link. quote:See Southpark episode "Goobacks" for more info: http://mrtwig.net/ep.php?e=806 -------------------- Pathological Jerk Jerking at Spiderweb since 1999 Posts: 143 | Registered: Sunday, April 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 08:04
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I find the very idea of trying to control where people can go and live in the world to be utterly abhorent - to this end, the best immigration policy is to have no policy at all. Ultimately, this would probably end up curbing immigration - the only reason that employers wish to employ illegal immigrants is because they do not have to pay them the minimum wage - if these immigrants were no longer considered illegal, employers would have no such incentive, leading them to employ "home grown" labour, leading to a fall in immigration. Outside of a totalitarian state, all attempts to control immigration are doomed to failure. (Discuss) [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 08:05: Message edited by: Morgan ] Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 10:09
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As long there are wealthy countries and poor, overcrowded ones, as long there is a flow of economic refugees. The birthrate of poor, underdeveloped nations is growing fast - whilst the rate of industrialized countries decreases. Mass migration will happen in any case, thus it's better to get them a legal state. Also: legal immigrants can be controlled. Remember: America is a traditional immigrants nation. America would not exist without immigrants. We have (in Switzerland) a high immigration rate too: over 20% of the inhabitants are foreigners. And yes, it can be a problem. We separate between economical and political refugees (a nonense, because desolate economics have do do with politics). If you can prove that your life is in danger due to political persecution, you have a high chance to get a legal state here. As long this clarification lasts (month and years =_=), people have the state of "admitting procedure" and are not allowed to do any payed work. They live from social welfare. Not very intelligent I would say. As quicker we would procede social integration, as better would be the chance for the (mostly male, young and under-educated) immigrants, not to slip into criminality. ;) also: do read "The Tortilla Curtain" from T.C. Boyle! -------------------- ^ö^ vegetarians are sexy. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 10:20
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Are you joking that America needs wars to sustain its economy? If you aren't, I'm afraid you are wrong about that until I see real scientific evidence otherwise. quote:Unfortunately that is a moralistic argument with no practical basis...I suppose if we lived in a world with unlimited resources or we could repeal that pesky second law of thermodynamics I would agree with you. The only real reason to restrict immigration is economics. Allowing too high a concentration of people in one area harms everyone. Having an immigration policy and controlling the locations of people is necessary in a resource limited world. Not doing so would cause undue suffering of larger populations, which I find a bit more "abhorrant" than telling a few people where they can and cannot live. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 12:42
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I would agree with you also, *i, if I believed that immigration had an adverse effect on the economy. That's simply not true - immigrants bring more money into the British economy at least than they take out. Perhaps you could make the overpopulation argument if people were emmigrating to China. However, I never noticed that America was particularly short on open space - the idea that a country is overflowing is a myth put about by populist politicians and the public too willfully ignorant to ignore them. I notice how you think this only seems to apply on an international scale. You can argue that New York is overpopulated - does that mean that people from Texas should be banned from moving there? [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 12:44: Message edited by: Morgan ] Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:48
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Morgan -- I thought you were taking an absolutist policy of "no immigration policy anywhere, for any reason, ever". That is what I was mainly arguing about. I'm not sure how detremental/beneficial illegal immigraton to the US economy (which is the issue of the topic, not the British one although it would be useful for comparisons). There is plenty of space, per se, to cram the whole world's population into the US territories. However, maintaining such a population would be impossible with current levels of production and the world would instantly plummet into a brutality of mass starvation. The point is, where does a society draw a line? Where does it restrict a policy to prevent mass migration with the most horrific results? That, I think, is why an immigration policy is always needed. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:49: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Monday, March 28 2005 02:48
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My belief is that the immigration policies in existence today are more counterproductive than having no immigration policy at all. There may be some happy medium between the two, but I think it will be found towards the open borders approach. You make the presumption that society will need to draw a line and that mass migration will happen - the presumption that the only thing preventing the masses from destroying our society is a strict immigration policy. Take a British example - it was feared that after the EU was expanded, we would receive a flood of East European workers seeking a life in the UK. Never happened. I believe there may have been a negligible increase in immigration, but nothing that would have any effect on the numbers. For some reason everyone is happy to assume that all Mexicans, say, will leave their family, their friends, their country, everything they knows, everything they holds dear for the US if given the chance where they will not be appreciated and stuck doing meaningless jobs for the rest of their lives. I simply do not believe that this is the case. Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, March 28 2005 11:03
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On the other side of the picture, the brain drain means that there is a steady stream of foreign-born and often highly qualified professionals seeking far from menial jobs. I know there's already a great deal of position jockeying in the academic world. Would opening that up to anyone and everyone make it even worse? —Alorael, who knows too little about immigration to have an opinion beyond agreeing that the current situation creates only more work, more abuses, and more expenses. Some kind of reform makes sense, but he'll leave the specifics to the people who understand the current situation. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Monday, March 28 2005 12:54
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I think the problem Alorael raises is the only valid argument against open borders immigration - if a first world country is pinching the professionals (doctors, teachers, nurses, etc.) from a third world country, then said third world country will suffer. I can think of one of two ways of solving this dilemma. Either employ an ethical policy not to pinch other countries' professionals, or recompense them the same amount of money as it would take to train the same professional in the first world country. Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |