New info on skills, esp LUCK
| Author | Topic: New info on skills, esp LUCK |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 02:53
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I did some testing on hostile effect resistances as well as to-hit and to-dodge. We've been making some bad assumptions! Here's a summary of the effects of skills on these important numbers: ARMOR +1 per Luck TO-HIT +5% per Str / Dex +5% per Melee or Pole / Bows or Throws +5% per Blademaster / Sharpshooter +2% per Luck TO-DODGE +5% per Dex +5% per Gymnastics +3% per Defense +2% per Luck +10% (fixed) if Fast on Feet FIRE, COLD, and ELECTRICITY +2% per Hardiness +4% per Resistance +1% per Luck +1% per 2 points of Armor rating from equipment (NOT from Luck) +10% to fire only (fixed) if Slith STUN +5% per Strength +3% per Luck MENTAL +3% per Intelligence +1% per Luck POISON and ACID +5% per Endurance +3% per Luck One other important consideration: for all of these numbers, after getting to 10 in a given skill, you need to buy 2 points of the skill to get another step of the bonus. I assume that once you get to 20, you have to buy 3 points. This is the system Geneforge 1 used for all skills (it had fixed skill point prices). However, it seems many skills in A4 have their own formulas and ignore the 10 skill ceiling - Int, Magery, Tool Use, and Quick Strike, for example. Also, Parry is not 7.5% per point as somebody reported. It's a base of 5% for all characters + 5% per point of Parry (I believe this does follow the 10 and 20 ceilings). Those are the melee numbers, anyway, I haven't tried to figure out the numbers vs archery or whatnot. Also, Elite Warrior seems to give the additional +1 bonus every 8 levels, not every 6 levels as I originally stated. Not sure how I goofed that, if anyone wants to see if that matches their savefiles, not a bad idea. Implication of all this: Luck is really, really good. Question: Does anyone know if the % sign in all of the resistance stats is at all relevant, or if it's basically decorative? [ Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:30: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 03:40
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Another suspicion, though I haven't checked this one out: To-hit gets an additional bonus equal to 5% per level of your equipped weapon. This is a hidden stat, but it can be guessed based on the "base damage" of the weapon, which is the base damage for that weapon type times the weapon's level. Monsters get a bonus to hit which I am guessing is dependent on monster level. Perhaps also 5%? They may get a level-based dodge bonus, but it must be a lot smaller if they do. Base chance for a monster to hit is 50%, I think? Base chance for a PC to hit is 35%? (Need to check: do these numbers change on different difficulty settings.) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 07:39
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Slarty said: FIRE, COLD, and ELECTRICITY +2% per Hardiness +4% per Resistance +1% per Luck +9% (fixed) if Divinely Touched But I can't figure out where my singleton is getting some Fire and Cold resistance by this model. He's got 9% for being DT and 4% more from Luck, but he's got 29% total in each without using any items. Where's the other 16% coming from? I have no hardiness and no resistance yet. All I can guess is +4% per level of Endurance, as I have 4 of that. Nice work, by the way. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 10:50
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Okay, that DT thing was the result of REALLY poor observational skills on my part. Here's what's really going on: Half your Armor rating is added to Fire Cold and Elec resists. That makes good armor a lot better, since it also reduces damage from magic! It also makes me suspect that Hardiness, Resistance, and Luck all secretly increase your armor rating, which the hardiness description suggests anyway. Also, the 10 and 20 caps on skill gains apply to some Luck bonuses (Stun, Mental, Poison and Acid) but not to Fire/Elec/Cold. Weird! [ Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:16: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 11:58
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Update: Base chance for an enemy to hit you is 50% + 5% per level of the enemy. By the end of the game, most enemies are about level 30, it looks like; the most powerful are levels 35-40. That means they have base chances to hit of 200% - 250%. (Unless this bonus also follows the half after 10 rule, or has its own ceiling, but that seems unlikely.) 10 points each in Dex, Gymnastics, Defense, and Luck will improve your dodging ability by 150%. So the most powerful enemies will still hit you 99% of the time, and weaker ones will hit you half the time... and that's after an investment of 240 skill points (not counting the 4 points of Strength to get to Gymnastics, although those coincidentally cost the same as the 4 points of Gymnastics a level 30 Nephil wouldn't have to buy), which is about all one character is likely to have at the end of the game. Even a dedicated tank will be hard pressed to spend that much skill on these skills. So maybe Gymnastics isn't quite as killer as we thought. Vlish, how's your tank doing? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 12:46
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I started over. So I don't know. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 6554
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 12:53
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so should i invest in luck? -------------------- join me! we shall harness the power of geckos, bunnys, and fluffy pink stuffed animals and rule the world!!! Posts: 193 | Registered: Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 13:14
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That's what all this information is for. Everyone else, please do not respond to this question. It's spam, and until the questions actually have thought behind them and require more than one sentence to answer, they shouldn't be encouraged. —Alorael, who brings you back to your regularly scheduled Luck debate. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 17:18
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My nephil has 57 armor, only 54 of which I can account for. Is there a base armor value of 4? If half my armor rating is added to fire/cold resistance, then that should be 32 armor to get the 16 fire/cold resistance points I can't account for, but half my armor rating would be 27 or 28.5. Could you go through an example from a PC of your own how you think this works? Also, at some point, you/we should resummarize what we think we know now about investing in skills. Clearly Luck is worthy of a certain amount of investment and going overboard for Gymnastics is probably not particularly useful. Looks also like Strength is worth bumping up to at least 8-10 for a fighter. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 17:47
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There are 25 F/C/E % for you to account for -- you forgot to discount the points I had foolishly thought Divinely Touched provided. That suggests to me that you get that 25 from your armor, and your other 7 points of armor come from Luck. Armor from Luck does not add to FCE, as each point of Luck instead adds one FCE %. You can test this yourself... just write down your resists, put on or take off a piece of armor, and see what happens. I don't remember any base armor score and I'm pretty sure there isn't one. For the three unaccountable points of armor, I'd recheck your math, make sure you aren't miscounting the Clover Boots or anything like that. Also, re 8-10 strength for a fighter and whatnot, something else that's worth taking into account is bonuses you expect to get from items, in addition to race and traits; these bonuses provide reduced benefits above 10 for many scores just like bought skills do. With the girdles, etc., some of this may be worth thinking ahead on. You know, when I played G1-3, even on Torment, I generally refused to use any of the trainers. It was too annoying to hold off on vital skills just to save a few skill points. Frankly I wonder if that isn't the healthiest attitude :) [ Sunday, December 25, 2005 18:21: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 18:39
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It sure isn't much fun holding off on all these poorly-located trainers. I think one good approach to playing a game is to role play as if you don't know what trainers lie ahead or where...and do what seems intuitive: invest in the skills you want and need right now. Any decently built party of four, even on Torment, can and should do quite well even without "perfect" conservation of all possible skill point assignment. It becomes more critical for a party of one or two. I think a party of two is doable without editing. I am giving my singleton PC 80 skill points worth of Knowledge Elixirs with the Bodrie editor just now, though, because I want the starting skill points of two PC's to work with. I will bring up his Arcane Lore and Nature Lore now, as I would have if I had been playing with all the points all along. I will still face some brutally difficult strategic battles as a singleton and the usual level-up problems, so it will be no walk in the park. I have the original unadulterated game saved as well, in case I want to ever play it out and see if it could even be successful. [ Sunday, December 25, 2005 18:40: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 19:11
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Boooooooo. I am actually starting to think it's doable after all. Also, I am concluding that in the long run, DT + Elite Warrior and Deadeye are not the best combinations. At level 32, DT alone gives +9. The other skill gives you an extra +6 or +5, but this becomes effectively +3 given the 10-ceiling. On the other hand, Natural Mage gives the full bonus. For a singleton I think it's a lot better, as it allows you to focus all your SP on tanking. Given enough trainers and a few wisdom crystals, and the right armor selection, I think a singleton *may* be able to boost dodging enough to keep up with enemies. Very few attacks can't be dodged, and those can I suspect be handled on a case by case basis. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 19:20
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All right, you talked me into it. I'm going to keep going with my unadulterated singleton as far as I can. If it fails, I may try a dual party next. Combat-wise, my singleton has been holding his own. He did just fine in the Draco Mines and Motrax Lair. If I can accept the fact I will never read a spellbook or open a cache, I could make this guy a decent tank, thief, and magician in the long run. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |