Empress Prazac's Reign

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AuthorTopic: Empress Prazac's Reign
Mongolian Barbeque
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I noticed in A Small Rebellion that mention was made of "the Emperor." Since this took place in 855, when did Prazac's reign end? How did it end? Was she killed, deposed, or did she die of natural causes?

I ask because I intend to use Prazac in my scenario, and I'd like to keep details of her reign consistent with the established "facts."
Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00
Lifecrafter
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I don't think anybody knows. You'll have to establish something for us. (Unless, of course, it's revealed at the end of E/A3, which I haven't seen yet.)

Lots of Exile history has been established by designers. Heck, look at AtGallows, or Nephil's Gambit (minor, I know, but it's a great scenario, anyway), and stuff like that.

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Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Warrior
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Sometime ago I copied down the 'timeline' thread about the Leaders of Avernum. It was very long, so here is only a brief. It was started by Arancaytar.

quote:
- Hawthorne I. 722 763 Discovered Avernum!!! 741
- Hawthorne II. 764 791 Erika and archmagi sent down 771
- Hawthorne III. 791 822 Sent misfits down en masse/Assassinated

I put a gap in here - for some time Prazac was too young to rule and Garzahd
took control of the Empire. Empire/Exile War.

- Prazac 826 865 Avernum III 833, VoDT 843
- Hawthorne IV 866 901
- Hawthorne V 903 925 Assassinated by the royal guard
- Prazac II 926 961 Beginning of a Golden Age

I hope that helps you. James

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Sometimes I just don't know anything about everything -- or do I ?
Posts: 99 | Registered: Wednesday, August 13 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
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In VoDT, a sign makes reference to an order by Emperor Stewart, or some Emperor beginning with an S, who died 80 years previous. VoDT occurs after Avernum 3, since the vahnatai are at war with the humans. That means that the timeline is inconsistent with the games or VoDT is set long enough after A3 to let Prazac die, Stewart succeed, Stewart die, and 80 years to pass.

—Alorael, who suspects that the timeline needs editing. In any case, most of the details of Ermarian have been created right here, so feel free to alter them for your scenarios as you see fit. Heck, the name Ermarian was created by the BoE community!
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Triad Mage
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Alorael, that's ... not right at all. You don't have to keep undermining us without knowing what we've done.

- Stewart I. 672 722 Closed the school in VoDT. Valorim completely settled.
- Hawthorne I. 722 763 Discovered Avernum in 741.
- Hawthorne II. 763 791 Erika and archmagi sent down in 771.
- Hawthorne III. 791 822 Assassinated.
- Garzahd I. 822 825 Empire vs. Exile War. Assassinated.
- Prazac I. 825 865 Ushers in Golden Age. Avernum III 833, VoDT 843


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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
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The lists in the Leaders of Avernum Thread are all out of date. I think I put the latest version on my site, and it's identical with Drakey's post just now.

However, I've got the following evidence from playing Avernum 2 (yes, I actually battered my way through the whole game with a godparty for a week to pick up any interesting info on Avernum history, politics, etc.)

"Empress Prazac - Long may she reign!" Seen near a statue, Evermoon 19, 823 in Harston, Empire Outpost of Avernum during the Empire War.

In Fort Dolthar: "This is the statue of a young, smiling woman. She looks almost touchingly innocent. The plaque at the base reads "Empress Prazac - Long may she reign."

In the same fort, Garzahd is shown wearing the robe of an archmage, with no other ornaments (such as a crown or a scepter). The plaque at his statue reads, simply "Garzahd". Not "Emperor Garzahd" or anything.

That would be evidence that Prazac was, in fact, in power during the war (and, more specifically, before 825). She might not have the supreme say in the Avernum campaign (which is Garzahd's job), and she might be too young to be anything but a figurehead (in name, not in wits, since Prazac must doubtlessly have been rather smart even then), but she was, in fact, on the throne.

Hawthorne was assassinated in 822, while Prazac is known to reign in 823, so it becomes increasingly tricky to squeeze in an usurping Garzahd. It would be far more convenient to say that Prazac ascended the throne in 822, upon her father's death.

[ Saturday, March 27, 2004 06:13: Message edited by: Arancaytar ]

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
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Drakey and I had a sizable discussion about history in the Slith Homeland thread. A little more than halfway down the first page we start talking about Avernum and Empire history in general. Although, come to think of it, we never answered a question of mine, which is exactly from what do we know that the Hawthorne the heroes of A1 kill is Hawthorne III? I think I remember this somewhere, but I forget how or where.

What muddles some of this stuff up is that Jeff clearly changed the history in the shift from Exile to Avernum. For example, BoE's VoDT says, "The proclamation is dated 130 years ago. Emperor Stewart has been dead for a century" (text 33 in town 13: Libraries), but BoA says, "The proclamation is dated eighty years ago. Emperor Stewart was dead well before you were born" (state 13 in town 13: Libraries).

Thus in Exile, the First Expedition was 70 years before E1, but in Avernum, it was 50 years before A1. And many other issues crop up. For a more in-depth discussion, look at the link above.

As to the original question, I don't have an answer, but I would like to make a request: can we put up some reasoning behind these dates being ascribed to different scenarios? I remember thinking for some reason that VoDT was after A3, but now I can't find anything more substantial than that it is after A2. We know it's after A2 because the party recognizes the vahnatai as vahnatai: "You suspect you know what it is: a Vahnatai. Bizarre creatures living deep within the earth, who have sworn to somehow entirely destroy the Empire" (state 15, town 15: Vahnatai Caverns). You could make a case for the "have sworn to somehow entirely destroy the Empire" part referring to their part in the Empire-Avernum War of A2 or to the monster plagues of A3; it's ambiguous.

As for the date on ASR... I've looked, but I haven't found anything so far.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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Nobody knows that the vahnatai are holding such a grudge immediately after A2. Even Avernum has no idea until the intrepid band of four discover the evidence and blow up Rentar-Ihrno's Keep. If the sworn vengeance is commonly known, VoDT is probably set after A3, when Avernum and the Empire are communicating and Rentar-Ihrno's plot is known (and foiled).

—Alorael, who was indeed going by BoA dates. Drakey's timeline has Stewart I more than 80 years back. Why couldn't Jeff stick with one set of numbers?
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The Empire would probably have disseminated anti-Vahnatai propaganda as soon as it was aware the Vahnatai had joined the war against the Empire. It hardly matters whether they knew about the Vahnatai's actual plans or not.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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VoDT is 10 years after A3 - in 843.

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How do we know that, Drakey? Where does that date come from?

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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This Side Towards Enemy
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In a slith fort in A1 there's a book about Valorim. It says that Valorim was completely settled under the reign of the Hawthornes (I forget which one.) So it can't have been Stewart who did that.

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Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
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If you play VoDT in BoA, the year given in the date counter is 855.

—Alorael, who is now even more confused than before.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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If I'm not totally out of my mind, the date counter starts at 855 for any scenario that is the first for your selected party, and then increments by one for each scenario that you play. Does that suggest to anyone else that at least Jeff's scenarios are meant to be set in the years: VoDT 855, ASR 856, ZKR 857, and DWtD 858? Or at the very least, that VoDT is supposed to be set in 855 and the others are supposed to be not long (a few years at most) after that?

It would be nice to have a set_year call to mark that a scenario takes place in the far-future or distant past... wait, that deserves to go on the BoA Editor forum.

EDIT: And for the record, the book that BtI is talking about is in Swamp City and says, "The book is a history of the Empire. Like most of the books on the surface, it was only released after being carefully checked by the agents of Emperor Hawthorne. It describes how the Empire came to rule all four continents on the surface.

The book ends just after the fourth, wildest continent, Valorim, is finally conquered by Emperor Hawthorne. The humans there who opposed him either ended up dead or in Avernum. Usually the former."

[ Monday, March 29, 2004 19:37: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Triad Mage
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It depends on what you call completely settled vs. completely conquered - at the time of Avernum 3, is Valorim completely conquered? A city like Sharimik is more that 100 years old, pushing it out of the reign of Hawthorne I.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Mongolian Barbeque
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quote:
Originally written by Alorael:

If you play VoDT in BoA, the year given in the date counter is 855.

—Alorael, who is now even more confused than before.

Yeah — me too!
Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00
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I just had a really, really terrible idea.

Does anything anywhere actually say that Emperor Hawthorne is Hawthorne III? And even if so, does anything say that his father was Hawthorne II? Namesakes need not be one's parent... look at the Queen Elizabeths of England or the King Louises of France.

I ask because I've been replayed A1-3 with god parties on and off for a few weeks now and taking notes on any sort of historical facts, and reviewing my notes, I don't see ANYTHING that gives the name of Hawthorne's father. Worse yet, if VoDT really is supposed to take place in 855, then the order to close the School would have been dated around 775. Why is this bad? Because (as I tried to establish in the Slith Homeland thread) the First Expedition was sent around 765 or 770. That means that Emperor STEWART discovered Avernum, NOT Hawthorne I. Moreover, the archmages (Erika et al) were exiled around 775 or 780 by the father of the Hawthorne of A1. That's awfully close to the time of the date of the order to close the School, when we know Stewart was still in power.

This suggests to me that we might be completely off, and Emperor Stewart was Emperor Hawthorne's father.

[ Tuesday, March 30, 2004 19:06: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
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The School in BoE does have room belonging to some "Erika," although I didn't find it again in BoA. Then again, I couldn't remember where it was the first time, so I could very well have gone right by it.

—Alorael, who believes that the dynastic chart is, like much of BoE/BoA history, a composite of facts from the games and plausible contributions from the forums. As long as we have to make up old dates and emperors, they might as well be the same fabrications.
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I was reading over this and I felt I needed to come back in able to respond to this...

quote:
The lists in the Leaders of Avernum Thread are all out of date. I think I put the latest version on my site, and it's identical with Drakey's post just now.

However, I've got the following evidence from playing Avernum 2 (yes, I actually battered my way through the whole game with a godparty for a week to pick up any interesting info on Avernum history, politics, etc.)

"Empress Prazac - Long may she reign!" Seen near a statue, Evermoon 19, 823 in Harston, Empire Outpost of Avernum during the Empire War.

In Fort Dolthar: "This is the statue of a young, smiling woman. She looks almost touchingly innocent. The plaque at the base reads "Empress Prazac - Long may she reign."

In the same fort, Garzahd is shown wearing the robe of an archmage, with no other ornaments (such as a crown or a scepter). The plaque at his statue reads, simply "Garzahd". Not "Emperor Garzahd" or anything.

That would be evidence that Prazac was, in fact, in power during the war (and, more specifically, before 825). She might not have the supreme say in the Avernum campaign (which is Garzahd's job), and she might be too young to be anything but a figurehead (in name, not in wits, since Prazac must doubtlessly have been rather smart even then), but she was, in fact, on the throne.

Hawthorne was assassinated in 822, while Prazac is known to reign in 823, so it becomes increasingly tricky to squeeze in an usurping Garzahd. It would be far more convenient to say that Prazac ascended the throne in 822, upon her father's death.

Prazac was Empress immediately after her fathers death... but Garzahd was acting as Regent-thus he was the one with the power.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Tuesday, March 30 2004 08:00
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Alorael: the sign is in the far northeast corner of town 12, Lecture Halls. Erika's room is the southwest one of the four. Whether this is our Erika from A1-3, I don't know, and I don't know if there's any evidence either way.

EDIT: Also, I can find no evidence that Garzahd was a Regent or anything else like that. I haven't checked through A3, and my check of A2 was limited (I didn't replay the whole game), but when Micah refers to him, he says, "I speak of Garzahd, archmage and leader of the Empire's forces in Avernum." One would think that if Garzahd had a more official title, Micah would've used it, but no one that I can find (Erika, Solberg) does. As far as I can tell, Prazac was very much in charge, but she just delegated the war effort to Garzahd.

In addition, reviewing my notes, I see that Erika says in A1, "It was his [King Hawthorne's] father who sent me down here," and in A3, she says, "We all fought for Emperor Hawthorne's favor. My side lost. I, Patrick, Solberg and others were cast down into the depths." That sounds like Hawthorne's father was also named Hawthorne. It sounds like a Pliny the Elder/Pliny the Younger thing here, that they just refer to Hawthorne's father as Hawthorne also, without making any sort of distinction as to which is which.

Now, I've already said that I don't think that Jeff paid very much attention to Erika's dialogue in A3 and pretty much left it as it was in E3, which leads to some discrepancies due to the changes in history between Exile and Avernum. I'm tempted to throw out this evidence entirely. Still, if anyone can find any other evidence that Hawthorne's father was also named Hawthorne, I'll believe it. Otherwise, I don't know.

[ Tuesday, March 30, 2004 20:03: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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There were definitely two Hawthornes - one who exiled the archmages, and one who started mass exilings. We also know that this was not the same person who discovered Avernum.

We get the date 843 from BoE VoDT, which says it's 10 years after Exile III. It also puts the school closing 130 years back.

Personally, I prefer the Exile dates.

[ Wednesday, March 31, 2004 01:24: Message edited by: Drakefyre ]

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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quote:
Personally, I prefer the Exile dates.
I would too... for BoE. This is BoA we're talking about, and the Avernum world.

quote:
There were definitely two Hawthornes - one who exiled the archmages, and one who started mass exilings.
You can keep saying that we know this 'til the cows come home, and I'll keep asking you: HOW do we know? Where does it say this? I believe you; I'm just uncomfortable not being able to provide any reference in the games.

[ Wednesday, March 31, 2004 05:37: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Triad Mage
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But you did provide reference from the games - Erika's text.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
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Law Bringer
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I think at a certain point it becomes academic. The conversion was done with some date errors included (look at Grahk's Peninsula!). Ultimately, we'll end up making it work hoever we want just like we did with BoE.

On the other hand, there's no call to go wasting good argument material.

—Alorael, who is inclined to believe that the lineage is right even if the dates aren't. Rearrange the years of reign, but keep the order of Emperors the same.
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To Drakey: okay, let me write out my thought in full, then. As I said in the Slith Homeland thread, I don't believe that Erika's dialogue in A3 was converted over to the Avernum timeline, because she says about Micah, "He's the king now, and has been for over twenty years." If A3 is sixteen years after A1, then by previous quotes from A1, Micah would've been king for more than fifty years by that point.
quote:
Also, this is the part of A3 where the area is called "Northeastern Upper Exile," where everything else is called Upper Avernum. My suspicion is that this area was only hastily converted into Avernum format, and most of this stuff is left over from Exile.
as I said earlier. And I could probably find other things in Erika's dialogue, if I really need to undermine the credibility of that character in that place more. I would like further confirmation from other places in the games before I fully accept it. Although I have to say it would make sense.

To Alorael: Yes, it's probably a stupid debate, but it's fun :P But unless someone else knows something that they haven't mentioned yet, it's clear that by the Avernum games, at least part of the lineage is wrong. There were either two Hawthornes after Stewart or one, but NOT three, as was true of Exile. I'm still waiting for someone to contradict me with evidence, but no one has.

EDIT: About Grahk's Peninsula (to anyone who doesn't know, it says, "Discovered by Grahk yr. 2234"), it is clear that there are several competing calendar systems. From the Xian Tome of A3, specifically the work entitled "The Life of Empress Prazac": "Our blessed Empress and ruler, Prazac the Kind and Just, was born in Y.E. 5420."

This is kind of odd, because one would think that the Empire would standardize this, but apparently they haven't completely.

[ Wednesday, March 31, 2004 15:47: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00

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