What do you look for in a scenario?

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Author	Topic: What do you look for in a scenario?
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Friday, September 22 2006 22:47 Profile #25 I could care less about plot. I very much suspect that saying "plot" or "story" in answer to questions such as these is something people feel obligated to do. Kind of like how people feel obligated to say that poetry is compelling or that they enjoy reading it. I am sure there ARE people who enjoy poetry and people who want to have to READ through CRPGS rather than PLAY them, but I think a good number of people simply don't want others to think they are stupid/not hip. I read a LOT. Books that is. If I want to read the exploits of characters that are not mine, caught up in situations that are politically/morally/romantically interesting, then I KNOW better than to turn to video games for that. I am pretty much with Jeff Vogel on this one. "Roleplaying is overated. In the end we just want to kill stuff" he once said in an interview. BoA may not have the best tactical combat out there but even so, for me it is more interesting killing stuff and taking loot than reading through endless reams of text. This rant was mostly brought on by the stupid comment above that(paraphrased) 'Spiderweb is full of intellectuals and therefore combat is not as important as plot...'. As if anyone not parroting the mantra is some knuckle-dragging, beer-guzzling, button-mashing moron wearing a "No Fat Chicks" T-shirt and cranking up Kid Rock on his car stereo. See you guys next year. [ Friday, September 29, 2006 12:49: Message edited by: SkeleTony ] -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
Imban Shake Before Using Member # 75	written Friday, September 22 2006 23:30 Profile #26 Well, hey. If you have a truly compelling plot, I'll gladly play through your game or scenario as long as the rest doesn't get in the way. Some games that I've really liked have had no real attraction except the plot. I just don't really go to video games with the intent of reading a book. I go there chiefly to smash things, and I generally feel that gameplay (usually represented by well-designed combat in BoX) is the main reason to, well, play a game. (That, and I find it difficult to connect with my BoX characters on any real level - after all, they often have such names as "Ninja 1" or "Pope Giver XXX". :P ) Posts: 3234 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
John S Agent Member # 5814	written Friday, September 22 2006 23:33 Profile #27 I'd like to point out that in my first post, I stated that I valued appearance (specifically, first appearance) more than plot. I guess I was too quick in claiming that all intellectuals prefer plot; however, I never worried that someone claiming to be an intellectual would actually come along and dispute that. -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon Well, I'm at least pretty Posts: 1115 \| Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Saturday, September 23 2006 00:27 Profile Homepage #28 quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: I am pretty much with Jeff Vogel on this one. "Roleplaying is overated. In the end we just want to kill stuff" he once said in an interview. Jeff's views are a lot more nuanced than you're making them sound. Consider the following quote from Jeff, reviewing another shareware RPG, on this page: quote: "Excelent work. Your blending of intricate plot into the game play was as well done as I've seen. I'm about to start Exile III... the yardstick's been raised." As a matter of fact, he's written other articles speaking in glowing terms about the plot of that particular game (and others), although the article I'm thinking of doesn't appear to be available online any more. Also, I don't particularly appreciate the fact that you're basically accusing 90% of the community of lying when they claim that plot is important to them. If we hated "reading through endless reams of text", as you put it, we wouldn't spend all our free time hanging around on forums, now would we? :P [ Saturday, September 23, 2006 00:31: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Saturday, September 23 2006 10:01 Profile Homepage #29 I think I just said that a plot-only scenario would be hard to pull off for very long. The plot is the foundation, but without walls and a roof, you still don't have much of a house. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Friday, September 29 2006 13:00 Profile #30 quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Jeff's views are a lot more nuanced than you're making them sound. Consider the following quote from Jeff, reviewing another shareware RPG, on this page: Never said that Jeff was opposed to plot or something. I am not sure what you are getting at here. quote: Also, I don't particularly appreciate the fact that you're basically accusing 90% of the community of lying when they claim that plot is important to them. If we hated "reading through endless reams of text", as you put it, we wouldn't spend all our free time hanging around on forums, now would we? :P Use the quote function to avoid such misunderstandings kiddo. That is what it is for. Here is what I actually worte: quote: *BoA may not have the best tactical combat out there but even so, for me* it is more interesting killing stuff and taking loot than reading through endless reams of text.** Pay particular atention to the italicised portion(the "for me" part) as this clearly identifies who I am talking about(myself). For all I know every single person who is truly enamored of plot/story in CRPGs might be concentrated at these Spiderweb forums. I never called ANY of you "liars" and certainly never identified "90%" of you as such. I was saying that GENERALLY SPEAKING, I do not believe that everyone is as impressed by plot/story in what are supposed to be tactical simulation games as they indicate anymore than there are nearly as many fans of poetry as a poll might indicate. Reading is fundamental junior. [ Friday, September 29, 2006 13:04: Message edited by: SkeleTony ] -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Friday, September 29 2006 13:16 Profile Homepage #31 quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: Use the quote function to avoid such misunderstandings kiddo. That is what it is for. Here is what I actually worte: quote: BoA may not have the best tactical combat out there but even so, for me it is more interesting killing stuff and taking loot than reading through endless reams of text. Pay particular atention to the italicised portion(the "for me" part) as this clearly identifies who I am talking about(myself). For all I know every single person who is truly enamored of plot/story in CRPGs might be concentrated at these Spiderweb forums. I never called ANY of you "liars" and certainly never identified "90%" of you as such. Here's what else you actually wrote, you patronising ass: quote: I very much suspect that saying "plot" or "story" in answer to questions such as these is something people feel obligated to do. Kind of like how people feel obligated to say that poetry is compelling or that they enjoy reading it. I am sure there ARE people who enjoy poetry and people who want to have to READ through CRPGS rather than PLAY them, but I think a good number of people simply don't want others to think they are stupid/not hip. Since 90% of the people posting in this topic have identified plot as important to them, you're saying that you suspect at least "a good number" of those people of answering dishonestly. quote: I was saying that GENERALLY SPEAKING, I do not believe that everyone is as impressed by plot/story in what are supposed to be tactical simulation games as they indicate anymore than there are nearly as many fans of poetry as a poll might indicate. Oh, please; don't try to BS me like this. If you were really just speaking generally, you would have kept your thoughts to yourself. The fact that you bothered to post in this forum, and commented about what you thought other people's opinions really were, clearly implies that your comment was directed at the other people who have posted here. quote: Reading is fundamental junior. So is intellectual honesty. [ Friday, September 29, 2006 13:20: Message edited by: Anthropos Kakistos ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Friday, September 29 2006 13:20 Profile #32 quote: Originally written by Papal Legate Pablo: I'd like to point out that in my first post, I stated that I valued appearance (specifically, first appearance) more than plot. I guess I was too quick in claiming that all intellectuals prefer plot; however, I never worried that someone claiming to be an intellectual would actually come along and dispute that. I am not claiming anything but read what you wrote IN CONTEXT. Saying that 'Group A' are "intellectuals(re: thinkers) and as such will agree with your opinion on the matter is a subtle but still offensive way of saying that anyone not seeing things as you do is NOT intellectual adn therforre LESS a thinker than you and people with your opinion on what is most valuable in a CRPG. If it were a one time thing then I would let it slide without comment but it has gotten a bit tiresome reading such comments. CRPGS are, at their core, tactical simulation games. That they are good for adding such elements as plot/story/characterization(better than say FPS games or shoot-'em-ups for doing this) does not change this fact. Take away the simulation aspects and they are no longer RPGs but insteasd become point and click 'Adventure games' or action click-fests/twitch games. Now that does not mean that you cannot or should not seek out adn enjoy what you deem to be clever storytelling aspects in such games. I am just saying that, for ME, even the supposed BEST examples of CRPG plotting and storytelling are woefully BAD(Planescape: Torment for example) as BOOKS and WORSE as GAMES. Just my opinion but my point is that it is not any more or less "intellectual" to enjoy the games for what they are and not worry about slogging through dialogue/text. 'Roguelike' CRPGs are completely devoid of any plot and I can play them for HOURS then read Dostoyevsky or Gene Wolfe before bed if I want a plot/story fix and I have probably one hundred different books on philosophy/science/etc. if I really want to get "intellectual". Anyway, I'll shut up now adn go back to lurking. -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Friday, September 29 2006 13:24 Profile Homepage #33 quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: Now that does not mean that you cannot or should not seek out adn enjoy what you deem to be clever storytelling aspects in such games. I am just saying that, for ME, even the supposed BEST examples of CRPG plotting and storytelling are woefully BAD(Planescape: Torment for example) as BOOKS and WORSE as GAMES. Y'know, if you don't like Planescape: Torment, your opinions are definitely unrepresentative of the wider CRPG-playing community and you might want to stop presuming to know what other players really like. :P Incidentally, P:T is one of Jeff Vogel's three favourite games. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, September 29 2006 17:34 Profile Homepage #34 quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: Just my opinion but my point is that it is not any more or less "intellectual" to enjoy the games for what they are and not worry about slogging through dialogue/text. Er, what they are are games with multiple elements. One such element is dialogue. They do have text, and "enjoying them for what they are" would have to include enjoying the text. You're enjoying them for the parts that you like, which is just as valid but not quite the same thing. Also, your point about "intellectuals" is kind of silly. Going around and hacking things up is not exactly an intellectual endeavor. Even if you're an intellectual and you like killing computer monsters, that's fine: intellectuals do non-intellectual things all the time (everyone needs some way to relax). However, pretending that pure hack n' slash is all about smarts, really, is kind of odd. That's not to say that combat can't involve lots of thinking, though. Beating puzzle combat — what you'd find in the so-called "modern" Blades scenarios — is very much an intellectual activity. Just not your basic "clear out this dungeon full of goblins" combat, which is fun, too, of course, but it's not exactly an intellectual challenge. EDIT: By the way, Thuryl, if you're going for "The Worst Man," you probably need a definite article and the adjective in attributive position: Ho Kakistos Anthropos. Right now you are "Worst Man," or possibly "A Worst Man." [ Friday, September 29, 2006 17:39: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Friday, September 29 2006 18:23 Profile Homepage #35 quote: Originally written by Kelandon: EDIT: By the way, Thuryl, if you're going for "The Worst Man," you probably need a definite article and the adjective in attributive position: Ho Kakistos Anthropos. Right now you are "Worst Man," or possibly "A Worst Man." Well, given that Alec is also a worst man, I wouldn't want to go stepping on his toes too much by claiming to be the only worst man. :P -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00