Amateur historians

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Author	Topic: Amateur historians
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, June 4 2007 13:03 Profile #25 Likely it is that so many have profited so greatly from the event, especially those that magnify the importance of that day. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Arancaytar Law Bringer Member # 2984	written Monday, June 4 2007 15:28 Profile Homepage #26 quote: Originally written by Dintiradan: By Aran: quote: Well, these days I'm still cynical, and I sometimes speculate on whether 9/11 was a set-up, but I'm more curious about what is really true than I want the truth to be cool or earth-shattering. The United States government has a long history of killing in cold blood. Freezing blood, actually. Seriously, what is it that makes 2001/09/11 so hard for some people to accept? Just the sheer magnitude? -------------------- Beware the cheekbone eating Frisbee! The sad part is that I thought he was serious until the phrase "while the metal spoons barely melted at all [at room temperature]". -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 \| Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, June 4 2007 16:13 Profile #27 The sad part is that I thought you were joking. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Monday, June 4 2007 20:43 Profile #28 The diluvian account is not meant to be interpreted as a parable anymore than the gospels are. In fact one gospel has Jesus lineage traced unbroken to Noah (and to Adam). Everyone postflood traces back to Noah. He is nowhere in the Bible regarded by anyone as anything other than a real person. You are correct about the details, but I don't see how you get "parable" from them. They read like a ship's log. And this line that you all are drawing between spirituality and reason is artificial. Faith is based on reason. The Bible strongly encourages wisdon and reason It's only incoherent if you don't really know what it's about. Then it seems like a collection of random stories and lessons. The truth is that every book carries a theme central to all of them. Then there are minor themes. Once you know these the picture becomes clear. (I'm always amazed by the intellectual depth on a forum for video games). Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, June 4 2007 20:59 Profile #29 There is very little "video" in Spiderweb games. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 03:45 Profile #30 How true. For that reason, the only one I can stomach is the Geneforge series, which is awesome. I tried the others and see the storyline quality, but it falls just short of being enough to make up. To be fair I think I may be a bit sick of exploring dungeons with my fighter, my mage, and my healer. "Let's take the loot from the empty grave with bones on the outside. Oh no! Who could have predicted a shade/ghost/spirit/zombie would defend it?" So it's not you, it's me (in case anyone involved with the games sees this). On the other hand, playing the role of a shaper is one of the most satisfying gaming experiences I've had. It's original enough to pull off low quality visuals. The new Nethergate is cool and fairly original, but I don't know if it's quite enough to get me to go into my pocket. I'm thinking that the Geneforge engine makes it more bearable as well. (I don't really know what I'm saying, but I'm talking about the way you move about and do stuff. I think you all say "engine"). Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 06:09 Profile Homepage #31 quote: Originally written by Stillness: The diluvian account is not meant to be interpreted as a parable anymore than the gospels are. In fact one gospel has Jesus lineage traced unbroken to Noah (and to Adam). Everyone postflood traces back to Noah. He is nowhere in the Bible regarded by anyone as anything other than a real person. You are correct about the details, but I don't see how you get "parable" from them. They read like a ship's log. And this line that you all are drawing between spirituality and reason is artificial. Faith is based on reason. The Bible strongly encourages wisdon and reason It's only incoherent if you don't really know what it's about. Then it seems like a collection of random stories and lessons. The truth is that every book carries a theme central to all of them. Then there are minor themes. Once you know these the picture becomes clear. (I'm always amazed by the intellectual depth on a forum for video games). I don't have anything to say about this, I'm just quoting it for posterity in case Stillness has the good sense to edit it out of his post later. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 06:14 Profile #32 I very rarely edit. And when I do it's never to change the post, but only to correct some grammar or something. If I have regrets I use another post to express them. Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 07:34 Profile #33 Noah's Ark Six Mesopotamian flood stories Occam's Razor Tie it all together Really now. What's the likely explanation. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:01 Profile #34 There are more than six flood stories. There are oral traditions that have passed down a story of a flood from many parts of the world. The simplest explanation is that there was a big flood. Where there's smoke... Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:08 Profile #35 There are also many stories, religions and legends about dragons that are quite similar. Medieval Europe's fables, Nordic religions, East Asia's religion-analogues, Central America's Aztec and Mayan cultures, and possibly (Nalyd can't remember) the Native Americans. Some connections can be seen there, like Medieval Europe and East Asia, or Central America and Native Americans, but they certainly aren't all interconnected. Giant Floods, along with big lizards, are just good material. And most everywhere has some type of flood eventually. Not necessarily a Flood, but a flood. [ Tuesday, June 05, 2007 08:10: Message edited by: Necro-Master ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:17 Profile #36 How do you know they aren't interconnected? Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:30 Profile #37 Well, Nalyd isn't a real authority on this, so he's probably horribly wrong and pointing out the obvious, but. . . While Eastern Asia, Medieval Europe, and the Nordic areas all had moderate interactions with each other (Eastern Asia less so), and the Native Americans and Central Americans probably had some contact (There is a lack of records), the two groups mentioned (The Americas Group and the E/A Group) did not have contact with each other at all. Granted, the Nordic peoples are reputed to have explored North America, but the individual tribes of Native Americans rarely spoke the same language and just as rarely didn't attack each other, so spreading by that method isn't likely, and the explorers would hardly waste their time explaining religion. Also, the contact between Native Americans and Central Americans was minimal, if it existed at all, and, again, they didn't speak the same language. Nalyd would like to state his own ineptitude in discussing these matters once again. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:33 Profile Homepage #38 Stillness: Well, it's good to see that you agree with Synergy, even if I'm not sure that you're aware that's what you're doing. One thing that I've never understood about Biblical literalism is why people would want to believe that God is such a terrible writer. Good writers use metaphors all the time. Good writers use parables, allegories, fictional stories that nevertheless teach moral lessons, all the time. For example, Shakespeare's plays are not factual, but they are so realistic and powerful that one can still learn a great deal about people and the way that we work from them. Only a really awful writer would write simply the facts in a straightforward manner without any addition or useful modification at all. Someone (I think a Catholic bishop or pope or something) once wrote that the Bible is true, but it's not true in the way that the minutes of a PTA meeting are true. The minutes of a PTA meeting tell you exactly what happened and when, but they don't really teach you anything useful about life. The Bible is true in a much deeper and broader way, he wrote, even if we must understand some of the stories as literature and not precise historical narrative. This sense of how the Bible works makes much more sense to me than the way that some wacky evangelicals want to understand it. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:35 Profile #39 How do you know there isn't some basis in reality for all the dragon/large lizard accounts? What would you expect to see regarding large lizards in human history if they did exist early on, but died out? Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:39 Profile #40 Nalyd would expect to see some of them kept alive as sacred pets, or their bones used frequently in decoration or ceremony. It would be hard to not associate a giant lizard with some sort of sign. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:40 Profile Homepage #41 There almost certainly is some basis in reality for the dragon accounts! We moderns aren't the only people who dig in the ground and find huge bones. We put them together to make dinosaur skeletons, but the ancients certainly wouldn't have done quite as detailed a job as we do. They knew that they were dealing with enormous lizard-like things, but not necessarily their exact structures, so the dragon myths are the logical result. If there were large dragons early in human history, though, I'd expect to find some bones of them in the right strata in the ground, as we do with mammoths and the like. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:41 Profile #42 I don't know about the wacky evanglicals you're talking about, but the Bible certainly is full of symbolism, poetry, alusion, parables, foreshadowing and many other literary tools. It's always very clear when it's using them though. For real people and events it references other events and gives dates and geneologies to identify them. Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:44 Profile #43 OK, so we are seeing some basis in reality for these mythologies though. Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 08:48 Profile #44 See? Nalyd knew he was utterly incompetent here. Are there any records of any bones discovered in those time periods? They would certainly keep them around. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 09:12 Profile #45 I don't know Nayld, but the fact that there were large lizards and the fact that there are legends in various parts of the world looks pretty suspicious to me. Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 09:36 Profile Homepage #46 Stillness: I think I know what you're trying to say (the myths in question have some basis in reality), but I don't think you realize that no one here is saying that you're wrong on this particular point. Nalyd: There are some odd references here and there. Either Seneca or Pliny the Elder (we read them at the same time, and I forget who it was) makes reference to digging up huge bones in one of his scientific treatises, but he claims they were bones of human heroes in the past, who were taller than people are today (much taller — it was something like forty cubits, which is sixty feet). I can find the exact citation if you want. [ Tuesday, June 05, 2007 09:38: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Stillness Lifecrafter Member # 7723	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 09:45 Profile #47 It seems Nalyd is, but if not OK. Posts: 701 \| Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes Guardian Member # 5360	written Tuesday, June 5 2007 09:54 Profile #48 Nalyd isn't. And can if you want to, Kel. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00