Yom HaShoa
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, April 26 2006 11:35
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You know, the stuff I said about respecting other people applies to EVERYONE. The Holocaust skeptic in this thread, despite making an apology, has been threatened and called names: "if you try hard enough, this will be the last lesson you'll learn." "it is intensely stupid" "Anyone moronic enough to" "You're actually so clincially retarded" "they have a place for people like you" I happen to agree that his belief is wrong. But that doesn't give me the right to make personal attacks on him. If you want my opinion, these kind of attacks are one of the reasons that so many people deny the existence of the Holocaust despite the overwhelming evidence that it did in fact happen. People get emotional when somebody denies it, and instead of arguing rationally, they make personal attacks. That's the same thing people do when they are trying to cover up a conspiracy (witness every U.S. president there's been in the past several decades, with the possible exception of the ineffective but genuine Jimmy Carter). It tends to make the person who you are calling names wonder why you can't just give them the facts. Zeviz: As to the Mohammed cartoons controversy, I too was thinking about that and almost mentioned it in my previous post. But I think you are overstating the difference in the way people react. From what I have seen, opinion in Western countries is mostly on the side of the newspaper and not the offended Muslims. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, April 26 2006 11:46
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There have been many tragedies. Natural disasters, wars, diseases, and so on and so forth. Very few of them have been deliberate, systematic attempts to annihilate a group. Even fewer of those have been as meticulously organized and carried out as the Holocaust. The dropping of atomic bombs on major Japanese cities was an undeniable tragedy. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who denies it. There's still argument over whether more lives were saved in the long run by forcing an end to the war through atrocious and immediate civilian casualties. I don't know enough to even comment, and I doubt there will ever be a consensus, but the difference is that there was a productive point. The Holocaust didn't help anyone. The burden of proof is on the proposer, but we've seen plenty of pretty good proof of the Holocaust. What evidence or support do you have for the Holocaust not being real? —Alorael, who is willing to accept that Hitler had his good points. Everyone does. However, as a leader and maker of public policy, you'd be very hard-pressed to find a more abominable human being. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, April 26 2006 17:34
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Holocaust deniers want to now minimize the horror since they are having trouble completely denying it ever happened. As one who lost relatives in the Holocaust, I hate how people still try to change history to glorify Hitler. The only thing Hitler did that was right was kill himself so we didn't have a trial like Iraq has with Saddam Hussien. Too bad it wasn't sooner so more lives could have been spared. Hitler was right that people believe the big lie. That is why genocide still is going on in the world. Sudan, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Cambodia, Ethiopia,... I can't even name them all in recent years because it has become commonplace. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6489
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written Wednesday, April 26 2006 19:18
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Holocaust denial is stupid, I agree. However, the fact that some countries have made Holocaust denial a crime is even more stupid. These people want attention, and all that does is give it to them. -------------------- "You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus Spiderweb Chat Room Avernum RP • Summaries • OoC • Roster Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things. Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 03:48
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quote:I reserve the right to vehemently disapprove of conduct and viewpoints I find offensive and incorrect. Note that I didn't say "you," I said "anyone moronic enough." My opinion is just that - my opinion. Should someone be offended by this, I challenge them to come up with a legitimate reason why denying something that has been recorded on film and that people still living remember isn't out of touch with reality - it's the same as denying that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, as far as I'm concerned. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 04:11
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quote:You misunderstood my point, I believe. My point was that my hostility is not directed at any member of the group that holds these views, but at the group and the views. "I was bashing Neonazi idiots, not you" was implying that whether my hostility could be applied to OM (you saw that he immediately took it to be directed at him) was fully dependent on whether he has ties to this group. I hold no personal grudge against anyone, even if some people think things I think are stupid and/or dangerous. [Ouch. The above might go into the imitation thread as "Yet another procrastinator.] The emotional analogy makes little sense. To nearly all of us, the holocaust is an atrocity that we have no personal relations to. Taking it to a personal level may be the only way we can fully express our disgust at it, but it doesn't really lead anywhere - not even towards ensuring it does not repeat. Saying "Hitler was crazy" is easy. It is far harder - and far more worthwhile - to ask: "Why did he have such success?" "Why did he think that way?" and "How can we prevent someone like him from doing it again?" [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 04:14: Message edited by: Joe Slater ] -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 2064
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 05:26
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Alright, I think I clear this all up now. I know people died in the event many people call the holocaust. I know bad things happend, I don't deny that. But all of it being pinned on Adolf , I don't agree with. In my opinion, if you believe that the US and its allies have never killed s, you need to open your eyes. And I don't deny the ing of japan at all. -------------------- I am an idiot. Posts: 775 | Registered: Friday, October 11 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 06:05
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From a logical standpoint, actions of the US and it's allies are completely irrelevant, unless you are suggesting that the Allies ran the concentration camps. The fact that other groups have or haven't committed atrocities in no way changes whether another atrocity has taken place. -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 06:26
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Drew, you certainly do have the right to disagree with stuff you find offensive. I'm just saying that there is nothing even remotely productive about expressing that by attacking the other person. All it will do is make the people you are arguing with entrench themselves further in their absurd beliefs. I think what Boogyman may be trying to get at is actually exactly what you are saying, Kinky Slugs. The fact that one atrocity was committed should not make us blind to other atrocities. It would be absurd to ignore the Holocaust because of the atomic bomb the U.S. dropped. Similarly, it would be absurd to ignore the genocides the U.S. has participated in in the past 60 years because of the Holocaust. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 06:55
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quote:This one bugs me. People flip out about the atom bomb, but it was no more devastating than other bombing campaigns during the war. Indeed, the fire-bombings of Tokyo and Dresden were far more gruesome and devastating, and they were among the least horrific parts of that war. (For instance, the invasion of China by the Japanese was among the most brutal war campaigns ever conducted; the battle at Nanking is quite seriously called the Rape of Nanking. On the Eastern European front, entire Russian cities with multi-million person populations were wiped off the map.) The only reason that the atomic bomb was more frightening was that it was a single bomb, but really, does it matter? One bomb dropped by one plane or a thousand dropped by a thousand — if the result is the same, who really cares? People sometimes go off about the "lingering effects" — "The radiation! Oh, the radiation!" they say. Yes, radiation deaths in the forties and fifties were pretty grisly. However, the major effects ended fairly shortly after the war. Hiroshima is a big city today, and I've been there; it's not like walking around there causes your hair to fall out. The Holocaust killed many, many more people without any conceivably useful purpose (ending a war, for instance, was the primary use of the atomic bombings of Japan). It is true that the Holocaust can't be blamed solely on Hitler. He had many people helping him, from the German people who voted for him — and there is much to learn from their mistake, which I think that the Germans today have learned, but others may not — to his lead officers such as Himmler, who have earned their rightful places in the darkest chapters of history books. This is one of the important lessons of the Holocaust, I think: another Hitler will come along someday, and we need to make sure that he is stopped before he can gather the resources and the help that Hitler obtained. [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 07:04: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 06:58
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quote:If that were only true, I would have to worry less. In fact, the whole concentration camp operation helped to stabilize the fascist rule. Fascist rule always "benefits" from a constant feed of people disappearing without trace and victims. For terror rule you need victims. The whole campaign did not start out by H. deciding upon the genocide out of some personal whim. But it started by the grand scale removal of political opponents out of public life. I would not say that the prosecution of the Jews only started when the machine had run out of political opponents but without this ouverture the holocaust would probably not have happened. Remembering the holocaust ouverture is part of honoring the victims, imho. BTW, that does not include any participant in this debate, afaik. I am allergic to inherited victimhood. quote:I am not sure I could stomach your arguments for this but I cannot follow you there. quote:Again, if H. had been an exceptional human being from the outset I would be worrying less these days. Reading about H. - what strikes me most is the "Banality of Evil". H. was not extraordinary from the outset - o.k. he was a loser who found a way to stabilize his life in the army. He appears to have had a hysterical attack of blindness (some say due to a Lost attack but the papers were destroyed) and is alleged to have been hypnotized and "cured" by a physician who installed some supremacy fantasies in him. So he did have that born again crusader Paulus-to-Saulus (sic) conversion and later got his regular mind-altering drugs. But the way he came to power says more about the wide-spread feeling of the German electorate of being victimized (by Versailles as well as the worldwide economic crisis) and waiting for some substitute culprit to be stigmatized in continuation of the stab-in-the-back legend - rather than any exceptionally evil "genius" pied piper. What troubles me most is that I cannot honestly claim to be sufficiently heroic to fight such a change, personally, if I were in such a political climate. How about you? I am sufficiently (over-)sensitized, however, to see the WWI/WWII theme echoed in the longterm Vietnam effect influencing the Iraq runup - but you have to be very sensitized for that. Example: I read Alec's forceful, furious post on TCoA and his expression:"You are all apes in human form." reminded me of a tile page of Ostara  and of  .The sculpture (by Emmanuel Frémiet) deeply influenced Adolf Lanz who has been credited for compiling and cultivationg the mystic ideas that influenced H. How many people have been fascinated by King Kong? Remember The 9/11 architect who was convinced the plot had to be simple to succeed. H.'s plot was simple. Alec, please do not take this personally! It is just an illustration of my allergy against denying human nature to one's opponents. No heroism involved - just allergy. So now let me blow off some sarcasm: quote:FYT [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 09:08: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 07:11
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Now, now. Everyone knows it's okay to run a concentration camp as long as you're only locking up the Japs. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 07:18
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quote:That was more of a fixed your idea than a fixed your typo. What I am saying is the only reason that the actions of the Americans should be involved is if you, for some hare-brained reason, believe that the Americans were the perpetrators of the Holocaust. -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 07:51
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quote:1. There are 364 other days in a year for a debate about Holocaust. The only reason to do it in the middle of a memorial is to start a fight. 2. He completely succeded in disrupting the memorial. Every single reply to this thread contains a discussion of whether Holocaust happened, instead of a memorial for its victims. 3. Right after his "apology" he continued to do the same things he apologized for. He didn't even have a decency to start his own thread. There are some actions that remove all respect one might have for a person. Boogeyman/Order Mage's actions in this thread fall well into this category. quote:Sorry for misunderstanding. quote:My point was that to some of us, this is an event that had personal impact. PS WKS, to aviod future opportunities for creative FYTing of your posts, say "death camps", instead of "concentration camps" when talking about Holocaust. Many countries built "concentration camps" of various degrees of repulsiveness. Nazis are the only people who built "death camps" - places for killing hundreds of thousands of people with industrial efficiency. So in the future just use the term "death camps". [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 07:54: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 08:25
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Sorry for taking so long to edit my above post. Let me just repeat: Remembering the circumstances that led to the holocaust is an essential part of honoring the victims. I am not advocating any balancing or ranking of horrors and denial is just plain empty provocation - (let us not dis true idiots here). t Aran: Keep up your critical thinking but if you read sufficiently closely, you will sense that this is not the motive of the denialists. Guess what? [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 08:55: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 09:05
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To clarify: 'Concentration camps' is a vague term. It means a camp where many people are held in a small area (hence high concentration). It could be used for death camps. It could also be used for a POW or civilian internment camp. For some strange reason, I'm reminded of an Animal Farm quote altered slightly. EDIT: By YAP: quote:Ummm... what? -------------------- All opinions are equal, but some opinions are more equal than others. [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 09:08: Message edited by: Dintiradan ] Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 09:10
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quote:I had a relative who died in the holocaust. Obviously I never knew him, but still, it does make it a bit more personal. -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 09:12
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quote:As a German, I have been working for a boss who lost his whole family. I got fired in extremely malicious circumstances and then experienced solidarity and support from the greater NY Jewish community. Meeting someone who was in hiding and still shows the trauma and someone who still has the infamous number tatoo and is a "Mensch" makes things personal too. It does not make us victims. quote:Orwell had those slightly altered quotes even within severalof his novels. quote:Attention whores. Therapy: Strategic noncommunication. OM's post was different. He might have been asking an honest question. Therapy: Personal dialogue if you can stomach it. I did feel overtaxed, honestly, that is why I started the "Policing ourselves" thread. It has worked. And, BTW, his posting in this thread also resolved my watchful waiting for a response. The hallmark of an attention whore is that he does not engage in dialogue. The "tl, dr" syndrome is the lead symptom. [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 09:56: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 09:24
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I'm not claiming victimship. -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 09:29
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quote:I never understood or meant to imply anything else. I am sorry if I have offended you. -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 09:42
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quote:Same here. There is a difference between caring about and demanding respect for something and "claiming victimhood". Half of my anger is because skinheads can literally get away with murder in Russia (unless you count 2-3 year sentences for "hooliganism" as adequate penalty for murder). So it just overflowed into this thread, because I've generally seen a very high correlation between Holocaust denial and other neo-nazi activities. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 10:03
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The earth is flat and I defy ANYONE who can find evidence to prove that this is not so - their "evidence" will be wished away. Coming from a Mennonite background and having been run out of several countries I empathize with the Jews. Hitler was allowed to do what he did to the Jews in part because we (the rest of the world) didn't like the Jews either. Pogroms happened in many countries and noone wanted the Jews living in their own country. Racial hatred is a horrible, horrible thing and it is obvious that we are not learning our lessons (Sudan, Serbia are prime examples of the world not stepping/stepping in too late when racial hatred explodes into murderous rage). For all of us who do not like President Bush, he called a spade a spade on Sudan and stood up to be counted while the rest of the world debated - he called actions in Sudan genocide and pledged support because the UN wouldn't act. Anyone see Hotel Rwanda? [ Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:05: Message edited by: Strontium ] -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 10:09
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quote:True, but no death camps without a run-in fascism phase of concentration camps. The loss of the Habeas Corpus consensus, nowadays, is troubling but for me the increasing attacks on Africans in Eastern Germany are closer to home. The remarks of the German Interior Secretaries Schäuble and Schönbohm are just apologetic. I am ashamed. -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 10:21
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quote:*facepalm* -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Thursday, April 27 2006 22:43
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Originally written by Strontium: quote:Calling a spade a spade and standing up and be counted is an appropriate challenge for members of this forum. The standards for the president of the US are different and do not belong in this thread. [ Friday, April 28, 2006 00:50: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |